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Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary

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  • #241
    They claim that the prayers to the saints are not the same kind as the prayers to God. And they also claim that the saints are lesser than God.

    The accuser needs to be able to present a convincing case that the accusation is valid - no one else has to prove anything.
    You accused members of the Church of Rome of blasphemy: but when it comes down to supplying evidence in support of the claim, you didn't even get off the batter's plate.
    Last edited by tabibito; 07-30-2014, 09:08 AM.
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment

    • #242
      You didn't answer the question in Post #240.

      Comment

      • #243
        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        You don't get to define which "pray" Rome uses when it promotes prayer to the saints. They say it isn't προσευχομαι, you say it is. Prove your case.
        You asserted they say it isn't proseuchomai.

        Prove this assertion.

        Comment

        • #244
          Already did - But I'll let Rome answer your objection as well: They don't teach that people should pray to the saints that the saints answer their prayers, but that the saints present their petitions to God.
          Another charge commonly levelled against asking the saints for their intercession is that this violates the sole mediatorship of Christ, which Paul discusses: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).

          But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).
          You are the accuser - you are the one who accused members of Rome of blasphemy - it is incumbent on you to prove your case. Until you prove your case, Rome is innocent.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment

          • #245
            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            Already did
            No you didn't.

            You made the assertion that the RC does not claim that proseuchomai is not to be rendered unto the saints.

            I asked you to prove your assertion. This means you get official Roman Catholic teaching that agrees with what you assert they believe.

            Comment

            • #246
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
              They claim that the prayers to the saints are not the same kind as the prayers to God. And they also claim that the saints are lesser than God.

              The accuser needs to be able to present a convincing case that the accusation is valid - no one else has to prove anything.
              You accused members of the Church of Rome of blasphemy: but when it comes down to supplying evidence in support of the claim, you didn't even get off the batter's plate.
              That's because he has no evidence. There is material which, if taken out of context, could support his claim, but I doubt he's even bothered to look; his mind is already made up.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment

              • #247
                You were the one who said I misused Mounce.

                Still no evidence supplied to support that idiotic assertion.

                Comment

                • #248
                  Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                  You were the one who said I misused Mounce.

                  Still no evidence supplied to support that idiotic assertion.
                  No evidence that you accept. Does Mounce say that praying to Mary means that the person thinks she's God? Does Mounce say anything about the prayer practices of Roman Catholics or Orthodox?
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment

                  • #249
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    No evidence that you accept.
                    Because none has been presented. You asserted I misused Mounce but as we have seen it is an assertion without proof.

                    William Mounce: The fact that people pray to both God (Mt. 6:9) and Jesus (Acts 1:24) is part of the proof of Jesus' deity (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words, Pray, page 531).

                    By writing the above NONE but God is to be addressed in prayer.

                    Comment

                    • #250
                      William Mounce: The fact that people pray to both God (Mt. 6:9) and Jesus (Acts 1:24) is part of the proof of Jesus' deity (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words, Pray, page 531).


                      Acts 1:24 καὶ προσευξάμενοι εἶπαν σὺ κύριε καρδιογνῶστα πάντων ἀνάδειξον ὃν ἐξελέξω ἐκ τούτων τῶν δύο ἕνα
                      And they prayed, saying "you O Lord, knower of the hearts of all men, show which of these two you have chosen"
                      Unless "Lord" can be shown to refer solely to Christ, and not to the "Father" or to "God", that is shaky ground on which to make the assertion that they are praying to Christ. (evidence is fairly sure from the sum of New Testament entries that this is most likely, as far as I know.)
                      Then arises the problem that προσευχομαι only signifies prayer to a deity - προσευχομα-ing to Hachiman wouldn't signify prayer to the Christian God. It would only show that the one praying regards Hachiman as a god.

                      So, does Mounce back the claim that the Lord being prayed to is in fact, specifically, Jesus - and neither the Father nor the Trinity? Or is this just another bare assertion with no scriptural evidence provided in support?
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment

                      • #251
                        http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...the-Lord-Jesus

                        Present your evidence that the prayer in Acts 1:24-25 is to the Father so all the evidence can be compared.

                        Comment

                        • #252
                          The prayer is addressed to the Lord. It does not (on the face of it) identify "Lord" as "Jesus". The assertion was made that "Lord" identifies "Jesus": where is the evidence to support the assertion?
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment

                          • #253
                            Link provided in Post #251.

                            Comment

                            • #254
                              Is Jesus the only member of the Trinity addressed in prayer as Lord?
                              Can the Trinity be addressed as Lord?
                              What evidence can be shown that in Acts 1:24-25, the use of "Lord" must be prayer to Jesus? and that there is no possibility of the prayer being addressed to the Father or to God?
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment

                              • #255
                                The Lord Jesus is being prayed to. This is what Mounce affirmed.

                                Comment

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