Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary

[foudroyant]

1. See your previous post? In that you wrote "the prayers to the saints". No passage teaches this is to be done.
2. Barnes points out Revelation 8:3and how it coinci8des with Revelation 5:8.....still no praying to the saints.

I'm still waiting for an answer from the question I asked in post #386

[foudroyant]

Ignoring Foudroyant's

Yes, you are still ignoring my question in Post #386.

[foudroyant]

I intended to post something detailed about this today, but I got lazy. Apologies.

ok

[tabibito]

Well, actually, there's a be-all, end-all verse supporting it in 2 Maccabees...but Protestants deny that said book is historically valid, so that would pretty much be pointless.

I'm not a protestant.

[TimelessTheist]

I'm not a protestant.

I was talking in reference of trying to convince Protestants.

[tabibito]

Humour me - chapter and verse.

You're at least as entitled to the non-66 books as Foudroyant is to his.

[foudroyant]

Prayer is due unto God alone.

1. New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis: Prayer is, indeed a serious matter. It is regarded in the Bible as the most fundamental of all expressions of religion. It concerns the deepest feelings and most central motivation of the persons who are offering their prayer to their God, and it concerns the covenant relationship, with its blessings and sanctions, as the inevitable fabric of the living communion between the people and their God. To pray is an act of faith in the almighty and gracious God, who responds to the prayers of his people (4:1062, Prayer, P.A. Verhoef).

2. New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology: In prayer we are never to forget whom we are addressing: the living God, the almighty One with whom nothing is impossible, and from whom therefore all things may be expected (2:857, Prayer, H. Schonweiss).

3. Eerdman's Dictionary of the Bible: In sum, both the OT and the NT portray prayer as a principal means by which Creator and creature are bound together in an ongoing, vital, and mutually important partnership (Samuel E. Balentine, Prayer, page 1079, David Noel Freedman, Editor).

[TimelessTheist]

Humour me - chapter and verse.

You're at least as entitled to the non-66 books as Foudroyant is to his.

2 Maccabees 15:12-16

2 Now the vision was in this manner: Onias who had been high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in his looks, gentle in his manners, and graceful in his speech, and who from a child was exercised in virtues, holding up his hands, prayed for all the people of the Jews:
13 After this there appeared also another man, admirable for age, and glory, and environed with great beauty and majesty:
14 Then Onias answering, said: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias the prophet of God.
15 Whereupon Jeremias stretched forth his right hand, and gave to Judas a sword of gold, saying:
16 Take this holy sword a gift from God, wherewith thou shalt overthrow the adversaries of my people Israel.

So, he's not only interceding on behalf of the Jewish community, but he's doing so with God's approval.

[foudroyant]

And this contradicts how prayer is defined in the citations in Post #412.

Biblical prayer is creature to Creator.

[tabibito]

12 He told them that he had seen a vision of Onias, the former High Priest, that great and wonderful man of humble and gentle disposition, who was an outstanding orator and who had been taught from childhood how to live a virtuous life. With outstretched arms Onias was praying for the entire Jewish nation. 14 Onias said:

This is God's prophet Jeremiah, who loves the Jewish people and offers many prayers for us and for Jerusalem, the holy city.

This seems to fit with Revelation to some degree, with a deceased saint (high priest) and Jeremiah (also deceased?) making intercession. Have I understood it correctly?

[TimelessTheist]

12 He told them that he had seen a vision of Onias, the former High Priest, that great and wonderful man of humble and gentle disposition, who was an outstanding orator and who had been taught from childhood how to live a virtuous life. With outstretched arms Onias was praying for the entire Jewish nation. 14 Onias said:

This is God's prophet Jeremiah, who loves the Jewish people and offers many prayers for us and for Jerusalem, the holy city.

This seems to fit with Revelation to some degree, with a deceased saint (high priest) and Jeremiah (also deceased?) making intercession. Have I understood it correctly?

Yeah, pretty much.

[foudroyant]

And the question in Post #386 still keeps getting ignored.

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ng-Mary/page39

[One Bad Pig]

Luke 2:37 - And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. (KJV)
1.TDNT: The Ministry of Prayer: Elsewhere the references of latreuein is to the general ministry of prayer and praise, e.g., adoration in Mt. 4:10; Rev. 7:15; 22:3, prayer and supplication in Lk. 2:37; Acts 26:7. (TDNT 4:62, latreuo, Strathmann).

Prayer can not be divorced from latreuo.
Luke 4:8 teaches that only God is to be served.
Luke 2:37 teaches that one of the ways Anna offered worship (λατρεύουσα) to God is by praying to Him.
Not only does this apply to the two passages above but every other time Luke uses latreuo prayer can not be separated from it (Luke 1:74; Acts 7:7; 7:42; 24:14; 26:7; 27:23).

Is there a passage in Luke's writings where latreuo is used that prayer is not associated with it?

Luke 1:74; Luke 4:8; Acts 7:7 (where the service is not even rendered to God); Acts 7:42; Acts 24:14; Acts 26:7; and Acts 27:23. In other words, every other example fails to prove your point. Is there some reason you limited your question to Luke's writings?

[foudroyant]

Even though the service is not rendered to God it used where prayer is associated with it.
That's my point - along with every other passage I cited in Luke.

Not one example fails to prove my point. In fact, they all support it -> Prayer can not be divorced from latreuo.

[One Bad Pig]

Even though the service is not rendered to God it used where prayer is associated with it.
That's my point - along with every other passage I cited in Luke.

Not one example fails to prove my point. In fact, they all support it -> Prayer can not be divorced from latreuo.

How about you point out where each passage supports it - where is prayer mentioned in each of those passages?