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  • #61
    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    Right, that's exactly what I thought it was. So they do consider themselves evolutionists to some degree then, just not natural or Darwinian evolutionists.
    Again, some. The ones in Dover, as OBP noted, rejected anything to do with any sort of evolution and were YEC

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #62
      So, okay, I'm reading through the Dover transcripts right now. I never really got into the whole thing at the time cause I didn't really care one way or the other, but according to their own testimony the defendants Bill Buckingham, and Alan Bonsell weren't IDers. In fact, they make it perfectly clear in their testimony that they didn't really even know what ID taught, only that it was an alternative to Darwinian evolution. Michael Baksa called it an alternative theory OF evolution, and that he was familiar with three theories, YEC, [Darwinian] common ancestry, and intelligent design.

      Basically from my brief overview of the transcripts, what I'm seeing is a bunch of YECs who only used ID as a sort of monkey wrench in the state required teaching of Darwinian evolution. Most of them did not know what ID actually taught, or if they did, they only had a very general understanding of the ideas it proposed. None of the defendants were scientists or theologians. They were all just lower academia types who had a lay understanding of the material they were working with.

      Am I missing something here?

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
        So, okay, I'm reading through the Dover transcripts right now. I never really got into the whole thing at the time cause I didn't really care one way or the other, but according to their own testimony the defendants Bill Buckingham, and Alan Bonsell weren't IDers. In fact, they make it perfectly clear in their testimony that they didn't really even know what ID taught, only that it was an alternative to Darwinian evolution. Michael Baksa called it an alternative theory OF evolution, and that he was familiar with three theories, YEC, [Darwinian] common ancestry, and intelligent design.

        Basically from my brief overview of the transcripts, what I'm seeing is a bunch of YECs who only used ID as a sort of monkey wrench in the state required teaching of Darwinian evolution. Most of them did not know what ID actually taught, or if they did, they only had a very general understanding of the ideas it proposed. None of the defendants were scientists or theologians. They were all just lower academia types who had a lay understanding of the material they were working with.

        Am I missing something here?
        Only that the ID they were trying to introduce was completely compatible with YEC.

        Did you spot enjoy Buckingham and Bonsell's comeuppances?
        Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

        MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
        MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

        seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
          So, okay, I'm reading through the Dover transcripts right now. I never really got into the whole thing at the time cause I didn't really care one way or the other, but according to their own testimony the defendants Bill Buckingham, and Alan Bonsell weren't IDers. In fact, they make it perfectly clear in their testimony that they didn't really even know what ID taught, only that it was an alternative to Darwinian evolution. Michael Baksa called it an alternative theory OF evolution, and that he was familiar with three theories, YEC, [Darwinian] common ancestry, and intelligent design.

          Basically from my brief overview of the transcripts, what I'm seeing is a bunch of YECs who only used ID as a sort of monkey wrench in the state required teaching of Darwinian evolution. Most of them did not know what ID actually taught, or if they did, they only had a very general understanding of the ideas it proposed. None of the defendants were scientists or theologians. They were all just lower academia types who had a lay understanding of the material they were working with.

          Am I missing something here?
          What you are seeing is just how much cross over there is. Some of those who advocate ID also accept evolution to a large degree whereas others who advocate it are in effect YEC.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Roy View Post
            Only that the ID they were trying to introduce was completely compatible with YEC.
            Like I said, as far as I could tell skimming the transcripts, they didn't really know what ID was (by their own admission).

            Originally posted by Roy View Post
            Did you spot enjoy Buckingham and Bonsell's comeuppances?
            Spot enjoy? I'm not sure I know what you mean by that.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              What you are seeing is just how much cross over there is. Some of those who advocate ID also accept evolution to a large degree whereas others who advocate it are in effect YEC.
              Like I said, what I was seeing was people who didn't even know what ID was (not really anyways). They were only advocating it because they thought it seemed like a smart sounding substitute to evolution, not because they were dyed in the wool IDers. But that was just the assessment I got skimming through the transcripts. Maybe I missed something though.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                Like I said, what I was seeing was people who didn't even know what ID was (not really anyways). They were only advocating it because they thought it seemed like a smart sounding substitute to evolution, not because they were dyed in the wool IDers. But that was just the assessment I got skimming through the transcripts. Maybe I missed something though.
                Some YECs will embrace anything that rejects evolutionary theory (except OECs) such as how the leadership at the Institute for Creation Research (ICR) as well as some prominent members of AnswersinGenesis (AiG) gleefully hopped into bed with radical Muslim extremists

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  Some YECs will embrace anything that rejects evolutionary theory (except OECs) such as how the leadership at the Institute for Creation Research (ICR) as well as some prominent members of AnswersinGenesis (AiG) gleefully hopped into bed with radical Muslim extremists
                  I feel that's sort of besides the point, though, right? I mean, people are people. They're going to do weird things in order to protect cherished beliefs. There are all sorts of Christians and anti-Christians who endorse to all sorts of things that they may not really believe in, or understand, simply because it helps support their larger worldview. I actually read a discussion once between some anti-Christians who believed or were agnostic about Jesus' historicity, but endorsed Jesus Mythicism because they felt it helped their greater anti-Christian agenda. They weren't really Mythicists. Seems to me that we should be careful saying the same of YECs who are just using the concept of ID as a monkey wrench. I'm not saying that somewhere out there there doesn't exist a YEC IDer, but as I understand both theories, they aren't exactly compatible, or, maybe more to the point, if you hold a YEC view of the world, then ID doesn't even seem necessary. Again, from what I can tell, the Dover defendants weren't a good example of YEC IDers.

                  By the way, just so I'm clear, I'm not attempting to defend the views of YECers or IDers. I lean old earth natural evolution myself, but I just want to make sure that when discussing views like YEC, ID, OE, etc., that we don't misrepresent their views. And on a selfish level maybe, so that I can better understand those views myself.
                  Last edited by Adrift; 08-05-2017, 10:57 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                    Spot enjoy? I'm not sure I know what you mean by that.
                    I meant that I changed the wording and forgot to delete all the words I'd changed
                    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                    seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                      I'm not saying that somewhere out there there doesn't exist a YEC IDer, but as I understand both theories, they aren't exactly compatible, or, maybe more to the point, if you hold a YEC view of the world, then ID doesn't even seem necessary. Again, from what I can tell, the Dover defendants weren't a good example of YEC IDers.
                      The ID movement has a 'big tent' strategy by which they try to include everyone from god-tweaked-evolutionists to 6000-years-global-flooders - their aim is to oppose evolution, and they generally don't bother to specify what is to replace it.

                      Almost everything they produce is negative - evolution couldn't do this, or this, or this. (It invariably could, of course). They never ever even attempt to provide any mechanism, timeline or details of intelligent designm because their supporters views are so diverse that any specifics would be rejected by two-thirds of their advocates.
                      Last edited by Roy; 08-05-2017, 12:22 PM.
                      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                        Basically from my brief overview of the transcripts, what I'm seeing is a bunch of YECs who only used ID as a sort of monkey wrench in the state required teaching of Darwinian evolution. Most of them did not know what ID actually taught, or if they did, they only had a very general understanding of the ideas it proposed. None of the defendants were scientists or theologians. They were all just lower academia types who had a lay understanding of the material they were working with.

                        Am I missing something here?
                        No, not really. There's a general consensus among historians and sociologists of science that ID was designed to be nebulous enough to cover most, if not all, anti-evolution positions, but specific enough that it has a more sophisticated intellectual position than insisting that all known geology/paleontology/biology/cosmology is in error.

                        Forrest's and Gross' Creationism's Trojan Horse is probably the best book out there to explain this.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                          Right, that's exactly what I thought it was. So they do consider themselves evolutionists to some degree then, just not natural or Darwinian evolutionists.
                          Now some Intelligent Design (ID) may be considered Theistic Evolutionists, but not at at the Discovery Institute.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                            Like I said, what I was seeing was people who didn't even know what ID was (not really anyways). They were only advocating it because they thought it seemed like a smart sounding substitute to evolution, not because they were dyed in the wool IDers. But that was just the assessment I got skimming through the transcripts. Maybe I missed something though.
                            I haven't gotten around to reading the transcripts, but I've watched a documentary that was produced by the winning side, and I have read the judge's ruling. As far as I can tell, your impression is accurate. The only thing the other side knew, or thought they needed to know, about ID was that (a) it was opposed to naturalistic evolution and (b) conservative Christians endorsed it.

                            Comment

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