Originally posted by Adrift
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Study Disproves The Bible
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I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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So, okay, I'm reading through the Dover transcripts right now. I never really got into the whole thing at the time cause I didn't really care one way or the other, but according to their own testimony the defendants Bill Buckingham, and Alan Bonsell weren't IDers. In fact, they make it perfectly clear in their testimony that they didn't really even know what ID taught, only that it was an alternative to Darwinian evolution. Michael Baksa called it an alternative theory OF evolution, and that he was familiar with three theories, YEC, [Darwinian] common ancestry, and intelligent design.
Basically from my brief overview of the transcripts, what I'm seeing is a bunch of YECs who only used ID as a sort of monkey wrench in the state required teaching of Darwinian evolution. Most of them did not know what ID actually taught, or if they did, they only had a very general understanding of the ideas it proposed. None of the defendants were scientists or theologians. They were all just lower academia types who had a lay understanding of the material they were working with.
Am I missing something here?
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostSo, okay, I'm reading through the Dover transcripts right now. I never really got into the whole thing at the time cause I didn't really care one way or the other, but according to their own testimony the defendants Bill Buckingham, and Alan Bonsell weren't IDers. In fact, they make it perfectly clear in their testimony that they didn't really even know what ID taught, only that it was an alternative to Darwinian evolution. Michael Baksa called it an alternative theory OF evolution, and that he was familiar with three theories, YEC, [Darwinian] common ancestry, and intelligent design.
Basically from my brief overview of the transcripts, what I'm seeing is a bunch of YECs who only used ID as a sort of monkey wrench in the state required teaching of Darwinian evolution. Most of them did not know what ID actually taught, or if they did, they only had a very general understanding of the ideas it proposed. None of the defendants were scientists or theologians. They were all just lower academia types who had a lay understanding of the material they were working with.
Am I missing something here?
Did you spot enjoy Buckingham and Bonsell's comeuppances?Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostSo, okay, I'm reading through the Dover transcripts right now. I never really got into the whole thing at the time cause I didn't really care one way or the other, but according to their own testimony the defendants Bill Buckingham, and Alan Bonsell weren't IDers. In fact, they make it perfectly clear in their testimony that they didn't really even know what ID taught, only that it was an alternative to Darwinian evolution. Michael Baksa called it an alternative theory OF evolution, and that he was familiar with three theories, YEC, [Darwinian] common ancestry, and intelligent design.
Basically from my brief overview of the transcripts, what I'm seeing is a bunch of YECs who only used ID as a sort of monkey wrench in the state required teaching of Darwinian evolution. Most of them did not know what ID actually taught, or if they did, they only had a very general understanding of the ideas it proposed. None of the defendants were scientists or theologians. They were all just lower academia types who had a lay understanding of the material they were working with.
Am I missing something here?
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Roy View PostOnly that the ID they were trying to introduce was completely compatible with YEC.
Originally posted by Roy View PostDid you spot enjoy Buckingham and Bonsell's comeuppances?
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostWhat you are seeing is just how much cross over there is. Some of those who advocate ID also accept evolution to a large degree whereas others who advocate it are in effect YEC.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostLike I said, what I was seeing was people who didn't even know what ID was (not really anyways). They were only advocating it because they thought it seemed like a smart sounding substitute to evolution, not because they were dyed in the wool IDers. But that was just the assessment I got skimming through the transcripts. Maybe I missed something though.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostSome YECs will embrace anything that rejects evolutionary theory (except OECs) such as how the leadership at the Institute for Creation Research (ICR) as well as some prominent members of AnswersinGenesis (AiG) gleefully hopped into bed with radical Muslim extremists
By the way, just so I'm clear, I'm not attempting to defend the views of YECers or IDers. I lean old earth natural evolution myself, but I just want to make sure that when discussing views like YEC, ID, OE, etc., that we don't misrepresent their views. And on a selfish level maybe, so that I can better understand those views myself.Last edited by Adrift; 08-05-2017, 10:57 AM.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostSpot enjoy? I'm not sure I know what you mean by that.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
Comment
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostI'm not saying that somewhere out there there doesn't exist a YEC IDer, but as I understand both theories, they aren't exactly compatible, or, maybe more to the point, if you hold a YEC view of the world, then ID doesn't even seem necessary. Again, from what I can tell, the Dover defendants weren't a good example of YEC IDers.
Almost everything they produce is negative - evolution couldn't do this, or this, or this. (It invariably could, of course). They never ever even attempt to provide any mechanism, timeline or details of intelligent designm because their supporters views are so diverse that any specifics would be rejected by two-thirds of their advocates.Last edited by Roy; 08-05-2017, 12:22 PM.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
Comment
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostBasically from my brief overview of the transcripts, what I'm seeing is a bunch of YECs who only used ID as a sort of monkey wrench in the state required teaching of Darwinian evolution. Most of them did not know what ID actually taught, or if they did, they only had a very general understanding of the ideas it proposed. None of the defendants were scientists or theologians. They were all just lower academia types who had a lay understanding of the material they were working with.
Am I missing something here?
Forrest's and Gross' Creationism's Trojan Horse is probably the best book out there to explain this.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostRight, that's exactly what I thought it was. So they do consider themselves evolutionists to some degree then, just not natural or Darwinian evolutionists.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostLike I said, what I was seeing was people who didn't even know what ID was (not really anyways). They were only advocating it because they thought it seemed like a smart sounding substitute to evolution, not because they were dyed in the wool IDers. But that was just the assessment I got skimming through the transcripts. Maybe I missed something though.
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