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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Human Dignity?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Logically, and inherently, do humans have more dignity than animals?
    dignity-
    the state or quality of being worthy of honor or respect.
    wiki:-
    Moral, ethical, legal, and political discussions use the concept of dignity to express the idea that a being has the right to be valued, respected, and to receive ethical treatment. In the modern context, dignity can function as an extension of the Enlightenment-era concepts of inherent, inalienable rights.

    Sacred-
    connected with God .....(or the gods) or dedicated to a religious purpose and so deserving veneration.

    Religio-philosophies---the term "sacred" would express the concept of "dignity" better.....but in a "secular"/Atheist context "dignity" is fine....
    If all creation is willed by God for a purpose, then all creation has an equal value/is equally sacred. One could hold that all creation has equivalent "value/sacredness" but different inter-relations. Human dignity is the reciprocal relationships between human beings---as the term itself implies....It would be a mistake to apply the ethics of "human" dignity to creations that are not human....such as animals, plants, or any other of God's creations....that does not mean that such creations are not equally sacred...they are simply different....the ethics of inter-relationship/interactions of human beings with all of Gods creations should be based on the the God-given responsibility of being his Trustees on earth.....as caretakers and protectors of his creation....

    In Judaism and Islam this sacredness is expressed in what is referred in English as "ritual slaughter" (Zabiha-Arabic, Shehita-Hebrew)
    In some other religions (including Christianity?) this sacredness is expressed by a prayer before eating.

    When comparing this concept of dignity with that of the UDHR.....

    1. All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
    2. Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.

    ....it seems limited?...when we try to formulate "neutral" ethics based on the largest possible appeal and approval...a lot gets lost ?...

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
      Since we have fairly poor communications with animals at such a level, can you tell me why you are sure that none of them "confer esteem?"
      To quote myself in this thread:

      Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
      Other animals aren't capable (so far as we know) of comprehending the concept, let alone applying it to another.
      I deliberately left in the caveat. However, we know enough of animal behavior to confidently say that the vast majority of animals don't interact with each other in this way. At best, they display fear of a larger member of the species, which isn't anywhere close to our meaning of 'dignity'.

      However, it's possible that in the 'higher' orders of social animals, something like esteem shows up. Am I sure that it doesn't? No, nor did I say otherwise. That said, I don't know of any behavior that indicates such a thing exists in other animals.
      I'm not here anymore.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Yes, but if we didn't hold a particular person or group in esteem than that means that they don't have dignity?
        It means that you don't hold them in esteem. It could be that another member of their group does. It's not a universal trait.


        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Since dignity is a subjective consideration in your view then we can confer it on whom or what we choose - no one being more or less correct about their judgments.
        Exactly. That's why I said there's not a correct.


        Originally posted by seer View Post
        But what do you have but belief? That because of certain qualities humans have dignity, but why can't other qualities, more common in the animal kingdom, equally be the basis for dignity? I mean if human dignity is not intrinsic then people like Ingrid and Singer have a logical argument. Ingrid Newkirk BTW is a woman and the President of PETA.
        Any quality could be the basis for dignity. That's why I say it's subjective. It's very dependent on culture.

        I'm not sure what you think the logical argument is, though. They could make a claim that uses their beliefs about dignity and animals as the premises, and they could use those premises to form a logical conclusion. The best they ever get is a valid conclusion. They can't make a sound argument without establishing that their beliefs are true, and there's no way to do that.
        I'm not here anymore.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by siam View Post
          Religio-philosophies---the term "sacred" would express the concept of "dignity" better.....but in a "secular"/Atheist context "dignity" is fine....
          Yeah, I think this is the hang-up. Sacred could actually imply something intrinsic. Dignity just doesn't, especially with the definition seer provided.


          Originally posted by siam View Post
          ....it seems limited?...when we try to formulate "neutral" ethics based on the largest possible appeal and approval...a lot gets lost ?...
          I'm not sure I follow this bit. What do you think gets lost? Why do you think we're trying to formulate 'neutral' ethics, and why are those based on the largest possible appeal and approval?
          I'm not here anymore.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            Then what does?
            I have been looking forward to your answer but it appers you have got nothing but questions. You started the thread and so far you have offered nothing in order to answer it positive or negative. You must have an opinion, or?
            "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Charles View Post
              I have been looking forward to your answer but it appers you have got nothing but questions. You started the thread and so far you have offered nothing in order to answer it positive or negative. You must have an opinion, or?
              As a Christian Charles I think you already know how I would answer. That we are created in the image of God, are sacred and we have inherent purpose.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                It means that you don't hold them in esteem. It could be that another member of their group does. It's not a universal trait.
                What is not a universal trait? Dignity?


                Exactly. That's why I said there's not a correct
                .

                ????


                Any quality could be the basis for dignity. That's why I say it's subjective. It's very dependent on culture.

                I'm not sure what you think the logical argument is, though. They could make a claim that uses their beliefs about dignity and animals as the premises, and they could use those premises to form a logical conclusion. The best they ever get is a valid conclusion. They can't make a sound argument without establishing that their beliefs are true, and there's no way to do that.
                So then there is no way that you can conclude that human dignity is any more than a unprovable belief - correct?
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  As a Christian Charles I think you already know how I would answer. That we are created in the image of God, are sacred and we have inherent purpose.
                  None of which has anything to do with 'dignity', particularly given the definition you provided. I knew this is what you were going for. Why can't you just use the real words you mean?
                  I'm not here anymore.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    What is not a universal trait? Dignity?
                    Yes.

                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    ????
                    What is this supposed to be?


                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    So then there is no way that you can conclude that human dignity is any more than a unprovable belief - correct?
                    Nooo. Dignity isn't a belief. It's a statement of how you feel about another person. The qualities you use to evaluate dignity are beliefs.
                    I'm not here anymore.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                      None of which has anything to do with 'dignity', particularly given the definition you provided. I knew this is what you were going for. Why can't you just use the real words you mean?
                      Dignity is linked to worth: The state of being worthy or honorable; elevation of mind or character; true worth; excellence. The state of being worthy, that is an inherent quality.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        This dog has dignity down pat.

                        -EFlgU.gif

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                          Yes.
                          OK, so human dignity is not a universal human trait.


                          What is this supposed to be?
                          I did not understand your point.


                          Nooo. Dignity isn't a belief. It's a statement of how you feel about another person. The qualities you use to evaluate dignity are beliefs.
                          I'm not sure I follow, to say that any human being has dignity is a belief, some may not believe that any human beings have dignity - that too would be a belief.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            As a Christian Charles I think you already know how I would answer. That we are created in the image of God, are sacred and we have inherent purpose.
                            I knew that was the position but I don't know how you would present these thoughts with regard to logic. Is it something you can justify logically? It seems you hold that if human beings have different views on dignity, then it is too subjective to really be anything. But people have different views on God, different views on the purpose of creation and so on. So can you point to something objective or a you rather presenting a subjective view?
                            "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Charles View Post
                              I knew that was the position but I don't know how you would present these thoughts with regard to logic. Is it something you can justify logically? It seems you hold that if human beings have different views on dignity, then it is too subjective to really be anything. But people have different views on God, different views on the purpose of creation and so on. So can you point to something objective or a you rather presenting a subjective view?
                              No Charles, it is an "if" - if a God akin to the Christian God exists then this follows. And Charles we all believe things that are not logically justifiable as you and I discussed. If such a God does not exist, however, then men have no inherent worth or dignity since nature confers no such status on humankind.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                No Charles, it is an "if" - if a God akin to the Christian God exists then this follows. And Charles we all believe things that are not logically justifiable as you and I discussed. If such a God does not exist, however, then men have no inherent worth or dignity since nature confers no such status on humankind.
                                So what you are saying is that it is an "if" whether humans have dignity. It seems to follow from this that it is also an "if" if I can kill, torture and mishandle other human beings, since, if I got you right, if God does not exist, dignity does not exist? Would you mean to imply an "if" to the most extreme things human beings have done? Would you imply an "if" if they were done to you? Do you usually start to doubt whether human beings have dignity once you start to doubt in God (if that happens)?
                                "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                                Comment

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