Human Dignity?

[seer]

Yes they are “inherent” properties given that ‘inherent’ is defined as “existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute”. The 'survival instinct' is the most permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute for all living creatures. For sentient creatures such as us it is also the basis for our ideals and moral code as well.

Tass, I'm not arguing that the instinct to survive (which is an accidental condition) is not an inherent property, I'm saying that that does not then, logically, lead to inherent worth or purpose. I mean we are free to make believe that we have intrinsic worth, but in a godless universe that is an illusion.

It does to a housefly.

Sure, subjectively the housefly would seek to survive. That does not mean that it has inherent worth or even an inherent purpose to survive, any more than the dinosaurs had an inherent purpose to survive. Remember in your world, the laws of nature created us and they intent nothing concerning our survival or worth.

[Tassman]

Tass, I'm not arguing that the instinct to survive (which is an accidental condition) is not an inherent property,

So what if the instinct to survive is accidental; it evolved incrementally via natural selection. And of course it’s “inherent”, it’s the most inherent characteristic we have.

I'm saying that that does not then, logically, lead to inherent worth or purpose.

As with all animals we have a purpose-driven life; one of survival and reproduction. Or do you need the fantasy of eternal life to give you 'purpose'?

I mean we are free to make believe that we have intrinsic worth, but in a godless universe that is an illusion.

The “illusion” is assuming that an imaginary deity has bestowed “inherent worth” on us. What does that even mean?

Sure, subjectively the housefly would seek to survive. That does not mean that it has inherent worth or even an inherent purpose to survive, any more than the dinosaurs had an inherent purpose to survive.

The housefly would think it has a purpose to survive (if it could think), just as the dinosaurs would have. The average housefly doesn’t top itself because of an existential crisis about the inherent purpose of life and neither do we.

Remember in your world, the laws of nature created us and they intent nothing concerning our survival or worth.

Nevertheless, we cannot ignore our instincts, they are what drive us.

[seer]

As with all animals we have a purpose-driven life; one of survival and reproduction. Or do you need the fantasy of eternal life to give you 'purpose'?

But we do not have a purpose to survive, any more than the dinosaurs did. We just happen to survive.

The “illusion” is assuming that an imaginary deity has bestowed “inherent worth” on us. What does that even mean?

That does not change the fact that there is no inherent worth in your world. God created us for a purpose, that brings inherent value as it relates to that purpose. We are not accidents.

The housefly would think it has a purpose to survive (if it could think), just as the dinosaurs would have. The average housefly doesn’t top itself because of an existential crisis about the inherent purpose of life and neither do we.

The bottom line Tass, is that if you are right, nature is our creator and nature did not create us with purpose or value. It could care less if we survive or not.

Nevertheless, we cannot ignore our instincts, they are what drive us.

Sure, we can ignore our instincts and commit suicide.

[shunyadragon]

Tass, I'm not arguing that the instinct to survive (which is an accidental condition) is not an inherent property, I'm saying that that does not then, logically, lead to inherent worth or purpose. I mean we are free to make believe that we have intrinsic worth, but in a godless universe that is an illusion.

The 'objective verifiable evidence' describes the nature of our physical existence, evolution of life, and humanity. The requirement of an 'inherent purpose' beyond this is a philosophical/theological assumption, beyond the 'objective verifiable evidence.' This is true regardless of whether God exists or not. It is not an adequate argument to assert the negative that if God does not exist everything is an illusion.

Sure, subjectively the housefly would seek to survive. That does not mean that it has inherent worth or even an inherent purpose to survive, any more than the dinosaurs had an inherent purpose to survive. Remember in your world, the laws of nature created us and they intent nothing concerning our survival or worth.

This is an off topic canard concerning the possibility of 'dignity' resulting from natural evolutionary processes. The potential of dignity, self-awareness, consciousness can be observed in primates and other higher intelligent mammals. This is logically coherent as a product of progressive development of intelligent mammals through evolution'

What you have failed to do, like the proponents of ID, is demonstrate nor falsify that this is not possible that 'dignity' is an 'inherent' proper that evolved through natural processes. Again, proving the negative is not a viable option.

[seer]

The requirement of an 'inherent purpose' beyond this is a philosophical/theological assumption, beyond the 'objective verifiable evidence.'

So what? We know that the human soul exists without "objective verifiable evidence."

This is an off topic canard concerning the possibility of 'dignity' resulting from natural evolutionary processes. The potential of dignity, self-awareness, consciousness can be observed in primates and other higher intelligent mammals. This is logically coherent as a product of progressive development of intelligent mammals through evolution'

Nonsense, how does self-awareness or consciousness endow any creature with inherent dignity or value?

What you have failed to do, like the proponents of ID, is demonstrate nor falsify that this is not possible that 'dignity' is an 'inherent' proper that evolved through natural processes. Again, proving the negative is not a viable option.

OK, then make your case - how do the evolutionary forces of nature create intrinsic dignity and worth in creatures?

[shunyadragon]

So what? We know that the human soul exists without "objective verifiable evidence."

Not the subject of the thread. Changing the subject avoids addressing the subject at hand.

Nonsense, how does self-awareness or consciousness endow any creature with inherent dignity or value?

Actually, it is the prerequisite for dignity, and it is possible that 'dignity' evolved as a natural consequence of self-awareness, consciousness and the need for social cooperative behavior of intelligent species. As I said before you have not demonstrated that this is not possible.

OK, then make your case - how do the evolutionary forces of nature create intrinsic dignity and worth in creatures?

I already did that. What you have failed to demonstrate that it is not possible to evolve through natural processes, which is the substance of your assertion.

Still waiting . . .

[seer]

Not the subject of the thread. Changing the subject avoids addressing the subject at hand.

Hey Homer, it is my thread and my position is that it is our soul (created in the image of God), and not our animal nature, that is one major part of inherent human worth. And the fact that you too believe that the soul is real apart from "objective verifiable evidence." If you don't like it Shuny, leave the thread because I'm going to keep bringing it up.

Actually, it is the prerequisite for dignity, and it is possible that 'dignity' evolved as a natural consequence of dignity and the need for social cooperative behavior of intelligent species. As I said before you have not demonstrated that this is not possible.

Then show it - how does inherent dignity come from the forces of nature? How does the social cooperation endow us with intrinsic worth?

I already did that. What you have failed to demonstrate that it is not possible to evolve through natural processes, which is the substance of your assertion.

Still waiting . . .

You did no such thing. No where did you make a case for inherent human worth. If you think the natural processes can endow humans with inherent value then it is on you to show it. It is not on me to prove a negative. And where did I say it was impossible for inherent dignity to evolve through the natural process?

[shunyadragon]

You did no such thing. No where did you make a case for inherent human worth. If you think the natural processes can endow humans with inherent value then it is on you to show it. It is not on me to prove a negative. And where did I say it was impossible for inherent dignity to evolve through the natural process?

I dis not say 'dignity' did come about by the natural processes of evolution. I said it was possible. It appears you agree by saying it is not impossible.

[seer]

I dis not say 'dignity' did come about by the natural processes of evolution. I said it was possible. It appears you agree by saying it is not impossible.

I said nothing about "impossible." But I certainly do not see how inherent worth could come about via the natural processes (processes that care nothing for us or our value). If you think otherwise make a case.

[shunyadragon]

I said nothing about "impossible." But I certainly do not see how inherent worth could come about via the natural processes (processes that care nothing for us or our value). If you think otherwise make a case.

Just because you do not see how does not make it so. You are unable to demonstrate nor falsify the negative that 'dignity cannot evolve naturally.

Dignity has survival value in the evolution of self-awareness and social cooperation.

By the way nothing in the course of evolution is accidental by definition.

[seer]

Just because you do not see how does not make it so. You are unable to demonstrate nor falsify the negative that 'dignity cannot evolve naturally.

Dignity has survival value in the evolution of self-awareness and social cooperation.

By the way nothing in the course of evolution is accidental by definition.

Of course how we evolved is accidental*, unless you believe we had to turn out the way we did. Or had to evolve at all. And even if dignity had a survival value (which it doesn't since every other species survives just fine with no concept of dignity) it would not be an inherent quality. It would be a subjective ideal that we invented possibly to help with social cohesion.

*Accidental - Without intention, Happening by chance

[Tassman]

But we do not have a purpose to survive, any more than the dinosaurs did. We just happen to survive.

The overriding instinct for all living creatures is survival. What it takes to survive is the purpose.

That does not change the fact that there is no inherent worth in your world. God created us for a purpose, that brings inherent value as it relates to that purpose. We are not accidents.

“Accidents” are an undesirable or unfortunate happening. We are not accidents, we are the result of natural selection and our survival instinct is inherent...i.e. it is a permanent, essential attribute.

The bottom line Tass, is that if you are right, nature is our creator and nature did not create us with purpose or value. It could care less if we survive or not.

WE care if we survive and we are a part of nature. Hence ‘nature’ does care if we survive. Some care so much that they want to survive for ever...looking at you.

Sure, we can ignore our instincts and commit suicide.

Ignoring our instincts, e.g. committing suicide or not nurturing our young, is generally recognised as a pathological condition.

[seer]

The overriding instinct for all living creatures is survival. What it takes to survive is the purpose.

So the laws of nature purposed that we as a species should survive?

“

Accidents” are an undesirable or unfortunate happening. We are not accidents, we are the result of natural selection and our survival instinct is inherent...i.e. it is a permanent, essential attribute.

If you don't like the word accident, use "chance." It is by chance that we even developed as we did, or even survived as a species in the first place.

WE care if we survive and we are a part of nature. Hence ‘nature’ does care if we survive. Some care so much that they want to survive for ever...looking at you.

Yes, but it is only by chance that we have this instinct. Nature had no purpose or intent for the human species, and that certainly does not mean that we have inherent worth.

[shunyadragon]

Of course how we evolved is accidental*, unless you believe we had to turn out the way we did. Or had to evolve at all. And even if dignity had a survival value (which it doesn't since every other species survives just fine with no concept of dignity) it would not be an inherent quality. It would be a subjective ideal that we invented possibly to help with social cohesion.

You have failed to acknowledge that different species evolve differently, and the natural process of evolution has different outcomes depending on the environment, different adaptation strategies for the survival of a species.

*Accidental - Without intention, Happening by chance

Nothing happens by chance in nature. Chance is not a determining factor in the course of natural events including evolution. Natural Laws determines the course of events in nature. Chance nor the concept of randomness in not observed in the macro world. The variability in the cause and effect events in nature are fractal described by Chaos Theory.

The following is a better definition for accident that would apply: an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.

Humans have accidents not nature.

[seer]

You have failed to acknowledge that different species evolve differently, and the natural process of evolution has different outcomes depending on the environment, different adaptation strategies for the survival of a species.

Nothing happens by chance in nature. Chance is not a determining factor in the course of natural events including evolution. Natural Laws determines the course of events in nature. Chance nor the concept of randomness in not observed in the macro world. The variability in the cause and effect events in nature are fractal described by Chaos Theory.

What are you taking about? Did we have to evolve the way we did, or evolve at all - yes or no? In any case, that still does not get you to inherent human worth.