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Thread: Human Dignity?

  1. #151
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    So we got lucky, unlike the dinosaurs, well at least so far.
    Natural Selection has determined who and what we are. “Luck” has nothing to do with it.

    Just doing what Natural Selection has determined us to do.
    Climate-change deniers are motivated by short-term profits or by delusional religious beliefs.

    I'm not following you Tass - do you believe that humans have inherent worth or not?
    Of course we have inherent worth.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post

    Sure there is, unless you can make an argument that nature can create us with an inherent non-physical, abstract quality
    You assume without justification that our "inherent worth" is grounded in non-physical abstract qualities, which is nonsense. Our worth is based upon our evolved qualities as a social species to recognise the value of our fellow humans. It’s a survival mechanism acquired via natural selection.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  2. #152
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    Natural Selection has determined who and what we are. “Luck” has nothing to do with it.
    But you already agree that we did not have to develop this way, or survive as a species at all. So yes by definition we were lucky.



    Climate-change deniers are motivated by short-term profits or by delusional religious beliefs.
    No, they are motivated by the way nature made them you said:Natural Selection has determined who and what we are.

    Of course we have inherent worth.

    You assume without justification that our "inherent worth" is grounded in non-physical abstract qualities, which is nonsense. Our worth is based upon our evolved qualities as a social species to recognise the value of our fellow humans. It’s a survival mechanism acquired via natural selection.
    Worth is not a physical quality, it then can not be an inherent quality - it is a subjective ideal, something we make up.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await our execution...

  3. #153
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman
    Natural Selection has determined who and what we are. “Luck” has nothing to do with it.
    I don't think this matches modern day evolutionary biology that well. There are a lot of aspects of our biology and essential nature that can't be explained in terms of fitness, a lot of it is randomly evolved for indeciphrable reasons, genetic drift, sexual selection etc... Not mere survival chance. Its for this reason, among others, that evolutionary psychology is rapidly being considered a dead field, as its impossible to tell what parts of our being, especially instinctual/mental, that evolved for what specific reason.

    We can sometimes make guesses, but not deterministic statements about it.

  4. #154
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Dignity is and attribute of human identity the same as self-awareness and an abstract concept. Self-awareness is not a physical quality like eye color, fur and feet.
    Nonsense Shuny, self-awareness is most certainly a physical quality. It is not a subjective ideal like worth.


    There is not an argument from the perspective of science that nature can create anything including us.
    So that is a no...
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await our execution...

  5. #155
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Worth is not a physical quality, it then can not be an inherent quality
    No one here has proposed it is a physical property.

    - it is a subjective ideal, something we make up.
    This statement leads me to conclude you do not belief Dignity is human attribute, and it is something 'we make up.'
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  6. #156
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    No one here has proposed it is a physical property.
    Then how is a non-physical property an inherent property? I would say the soul is.

    This statement leads me to conclude you do not belief Dignity is human attribute, and it is something 'we make up.'
    If God finds us worthy then we have worth.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await our execution...

  7. #157
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    I don't think this matches modern day evolutionary biology that well. There are a lot of aspects of our biology and essential nature that can't be explained in terms of fitness, a lot of it is randomly evolved for indeciphrable reasons, genetic drift, sexual selection etc... Not mere survival chance.
    Any mutations that are detrimental to the survival of an organism will be bred out or result in the extinction of the organism.

    Its for this reason, among others, that evolutionary psychology is rapidly being considered a dead field, as its impossible to tell what parts of our being, especially instinctual/mental, that evolved for what specific reason.
    Evolutionary psychology is focused on how evolution has shaped the mind and behaviour. Whether this is a valid approach or not does not alter the fact, that what we are is the consequence of natural selection, which was the point being made.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  8. #158
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Then how is a non-physical property an inherent property?
    It depends on how you define an inherent property. The mind and consciousness are non-physical, because when the brain dies they no longer exist. The mind and consciousness are a product of the brain and not a physical property of the brain. It is product of the physical properties of the brain.

    I would say the soul is.
    The soul is not a property, and it is not a property of the mind.

    If God finds us worthy then we have worth.
    True
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-15-2017 at 03:16 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  9. #159
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    It depends on how you define an inherent property. The mind and consciousness are non-physical, because when the brain dies they no longer exist. The mind and consciousness are a product of the brain and not a physical property of the brain. It is product of the physical properties of the brain.
    I think you would get an argument from Dennett and materialists about the mind not being physical - because the mind is the brain.

    The soul is not a property.
    Of course it is

    True
    God we agree.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await our execution...

  10. #160
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    I think you would get an argument from Dennett and materialists about the mind not being physical - because the mind is the brain.
    No they believe the mind is a direct product of brain only.

    Of course it is.
    I do not believe the soul is a property. It is an independent entity with properties.



    God we agree.
    On this point yes.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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