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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Human Dignity?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    This dog has dignity down pat.

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]23521[/ATTACH]
    Wouldn't that be "diggity"?

    As in "hot dog diggity"?



    Okay, I'll leave now. No need to get up. I can find the door by myself.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      Dignity is linked to worth: The state of being worthy or honorable; elevation of mind or character; true worth; excellence. The state of being worthy, that is an inherent quality.
      And what does 'worthy' mean? What does 'excellence' mean? What does 'true worth' mean? These are all subjective concepts. There's no inherent quality here, just pointers to subjective value judgments.


      Originally posted by seer View Post
      OK, so human dignity is not a universal human trait.
      Correct.


      Originally posted by seer View Post
      I did not understand your point.
      You said, "if it is a subjective consideration then who is correct?" I said, "There's not a 'correct'." You said, "Since dignity is a subjective consideration in your view then we can confer it on whom or what we choose - no one being more or less correct about their judgments." I said, "Exactly."

      Dignity is subjective. You can confer it on whom or what you choose. You can't be wrong in what you judge worthy. You can disagree with another on what is worthy. Neither of you are wrong.


      Originally posted by seer View Post
      I'm not sure I follow, to say that any human being has dignity is a belief, some may not believe that any human beings have dignity - that too would be a belief.
      I think there are two beliefs followed by a value judgment. Belief One describes what qualifies as 'worthy'. Belief Two describes how you think a given person behaves. Value Judgment asks if Belief Two meets the criteria of Belief One. You could have a separate Belief Three describing whether or not you think it's even possible for the criteria in Belief One to be met.

      I consider value judgments to be like emotions. You might have them for the wrong reason, and you might be overdoing it, but you just plain feel what you feel. They're not beliefs. In the same way, the value judgment might have faulty criteria, but it either passes or it doesn't. With this approach, saying "Person A has dignity" is simply stating that the value judgment has been passed. It doesn't say anything about the beliefs that go into making that judgment. Does that make sense?
      I'm not here anymore.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        If such a God does not exist, however, then men have no inherent worth or dignity since nature confers no such status on humankind.
        I agree with this statement, but I don't understand why this is the huge deal you seem to make of it. I don't have to confer any such status to have a workable ethical system.
        I'm not here anymore.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          Dignity is linked to worth: The state of being worthy or honorable; elevation of mind or character; true worth; excellence. The state of being worthy, that is an inherent quality.
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          Wouldn't that be "diggity"?

          As in "hot dog diggity"?



          Okay, I'll leave now. No need to get up. I can find the door by myself.
          Who says hot dog diggity? I thought it was supposed to be hot diggity dog.
          I'm not here anymore.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
            Who says hot dog diggity? I thought it was supposed to be hot diggity dog.
            tomayto, tomahto.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #36
              wait. this thread isn't about digging?

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                If such a God does not exist, however, then men have no inherent worth or dignity since nature confers no such status on humankind.
                How does it follow that if God does not exist then only nature exists?
                "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                  And what does 'worthy' mean? What does 'excellence' mean? What does 'true worth' mean? These are all subjective concepts. There's no inherent quality here, just pointers to subjective value judgments.
                  Ok



                  You said, "if it is a subjective consideration then who is correct?" I said, "There's not a 'correct'." You said, "Since dignity is a subjective consideration in your view then we can confer it on whom or what we choose - no one being more or less correct about their judgments." I said, "Exactly."

                  Dignity is subjective. You can confer it on whom or what you choose. You can't be wrong in what you judge worthy. You can disagree with another on what is worthy. Neither of you are wrong.
                  Ok, so the bottom line is that humans don't have inherent dignity or worth in your view..



                  I think there are two beliefs followed by a value judgment. Belief One describes what qualifies as 'worthy'. Belief Two describes how you think a given person behaves. Value Judgment asks if Belief Two meets the criteria of Belief One. You could have a separate Belief Three describing whether or not you think it's even possible for the criteria in Belief One to be met.

                  I consider value judgments to be like emotions. You might have them for the wrong reason, and you might be overdoing it, but you just plain feel what you feel. They're not beliefs. In the same way, the value judgment might have faulty criteria, but it either passes or it doesn't. With this approach, saying "Person A has dignity" is simply stating that the value judgment has been passed. It doesn't say anything about the beliefs that go into making that judgment. Does that make sense?
                  Ok
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Charles View Post
                    How does it follow that if God does not exist then only nature exists?
                    Ok, so what else would exist that conferred inherent dignity or worth on humankind?
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Ok, so what else would exist that conferred inherent dignity or worth on humankind?
                      I was aking you a question. You cannot answer by asking another one. You made the claim, then you must be able to justify it or admit it is wrong. How does it follow that only nature exists if God does not exist?
                      "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Charles View Post
                        I was aking you a question. You cannot answer by asking another one. You made the claim, then you must be able to justify it or admit it is wrong. How does it follow that only nature exists if God does not exist?
                        His question was rhetorical.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Charles View Post
                          I was aking you a question. You cannot answer by asking another one. You made the claim, then you must be able to justify it or admit it is wrong. How does it follow that only nature exists if God does not exist?
                          No Charles, we are speaking of inherent human dignity and worth. I said nature herself does not confer either, God could. If you know of something else that could confer such inherent worth, I would be happy to hear it. I can't think of anything.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            No Charles, we are speaking of inherent human dignity and worth. I said nature herself does not confer either, God could. If you know of something else that could confer such inherent worth, I would be happy to hear it. I can't think of anything.
                            Ok. You made a claim that you cannot justify. It does not follow logically in any way that only nature exists if God does not exist. It is not my problem to come up with suggestions that you can then question like you question almost every other statement in this thread without giving insight into or arguing in favour of your own view.
                            "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Charles View Post
                              Ok. You made a claim that you cannot justify. It does not follow logically in any way that only nature exists if God does not exist. It is not my problem to come up with suggestions that you can then question like you question almost every other statement in this thread without giving insight into or arguing in favour of your own view.
                              No Charles, you are taking it out of context and you know it. It wasn't just about whether God or nature alone exist, but about how those two possibilities relate to inherent human dignity - human dignity is what this thread is about.

                              I said: No Charles, it is an "if" - if a God akin to the Christian God exists then this follows. And Charles we all believe things that are not logically justifiable as you and I discussed. If such a God does not exist, however, then men have no inherent worth or dignity since nature confers no such status on humankind.

                              If you think there is something else that could confer inherent dignity then state it - but you know that you can't so you play games. And I did give you my view as a Christian.
                              Last edited by seer; 08-01-2017, 04:44 PM.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                                Yeah, I think this is the hang-up. Sacred could actually imply something intrinsic. Dignity just doesn't, especially with the definition seer provided.

                                I'm not sure I follow this bit. What do you think gets lost? Why do you think we're trying to formulate 'neutral' ethics, and why are those based on the largest possible appeal and approval?
                                lets assume that sacred and dignity are similar, just the language is different....
                                as you mentioned---sacredness/dignity is not a concept for animals, plants, earth...etc not because their behavior may or may not incorporate sacredness/dignity or that they lack the intelligence---but because their free-will is more limited (or non-existent as in the case of non-living things) than that of humans. The higher degree of free-will/freedom of choice entails a higher degree of responsibility---why? because humans can choose to protect or to abuse.....therefore the consequent responsibility also rests on our shoulders. Freedom of choice/free-will gives us (individual and group) power and this power gives us the ability to confer dignity or to refuse dignity.

                                These 2 aspects---how power plays into the concept of human dignity and the responsibility that human beings have as "the powerful" (free-will) to acknowledge and confer dignity/sacredness is missing from the UDHR...(at least according to some of the criticism of Eastern religio-philosophers).....UDHR is not yet wholistic---but religio-philosophies could articulate those ideals in a more wholistic manner in their own language, tradition, and paradigm so that it becomes a "way of life" that members as individuals and as a group can implement into their lifestyles.....
                                This means that there will be a diversity in the articulation and implementation of the concept and ideals of "human dignity".....on the other hand, a more personalized articulation might give a higher impetus to really believe in and apply the ideals of human dignity?....

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