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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Human Dignity?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Ok, so what else would exist that conferred inherent dignity or worth on humankind?
    We have evolved as social creatures with instinctive notions of cooperation and mutual aid, sympathy and empathy, conflict resolution and peacemaking. We instinctively care about what others think about us. This is the basis of our ideals and notions of inherent dignity and worth...not the enslavement to a tyrannical, imaginary deity.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      No Charles, we are speaking of inherent human dignity and worth. I said nature herself does not confer either, God could. If you know of something else that could confer such inherent worth, I would be happy to hear it. I can't think of anything.
      Yes, dignity and worth are apparent in humans, but the assertion that it cannot be of natural origin is without basis. Your presenting an argument from the perspective of Intelligent Design, which is not sound science, and a claim of 'arguing from ignorance.'

      It is possible that 'dignity and worth' evolved in humans with survival value as other attributes of self identity related to the needs of a family and community also found in primitive forms in primates and other intelligent mammals. It has been demonstrated that some primates mourn the loose of relatives giving value to the loose, recognize themselves in the mirror, and nurture and care for the young.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        We have evolved as social creatures with instinctive notions of cooperation and mutual aid, sympathy and empathy, conflict resolution and peacemaking. We instinctively care about what others think about us. This is the basis of our ideals and notions of inherent dignity and worth...not the enslavement to a tyrannical, imaginary deity.
        That is just stupid Tass, it does not follow that therefore there is inherent human dignity or worth. Inherent means we have a quality by nature, that is not the case if materialism is true. Any more than a house fly has inherent worth.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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        • #49
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          Yes, dignity and worth are apparent in humans, but the assertion that it cannot be of natural origin is without basis. Your presenting an argument from the perspective of Intelligent Design, which is not sound science, and a claim of 'arguing from ignorance.'

          It is possible that 'dignity and worth' evolved in humans with survival value as other attributes of self identity related to the needs of a family and community also found in primitive forms in primates and other intelligent mammals. It has been demonstrated that some primates mourn the loose of relatives giving value to the loose, recognize themselves in the mirror, and nurture and care for the young.
          I am speaking of inherent worth or dignity, not what we subjectively decide or not decide is worthy. And humans kill other humans, war and steal, rape, etc... So no, inherent worth is not possible with materialism, unless you can demonstrate otherwise.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            I am speaking of inherent worth or dignity, not what we subjectively decide or not decide is worthy. And humans kill other humans, war and steal, rape, etc... So no, inherent worth is not possible with materialism, unless you can demonstrate otherwise.
            It is not possible to base it in God. Make a deductive statement showing God provides dignity and I will show you why it does not apply. Deal?
            "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Charles View Post
              It is not possible to base it in God. Make a deductive statement showing God provides dignity and I will show you why it does not apply. Deal?
              God created us with an inherent purpose and worth - how is that impossible? I don't get your point. And please Charles stop asking for deductive arguments - you never provided one for any of your assertions. Do be a hypocrite.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                God created us with an inherent purpose and worth - how is that impossible? I don't get your point. And please Charles stop asking for deductive arguments - you never provided one for any of your assertions. Do be a hypocrite.
                So you cannot prove it? Good to know.
                "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Charles View Post
                  So you cannot prove it? Good to know.
                  Of course not, that is why I said "if" in my original post on this. But the fact remains, God can endow humanity with inherent worth and dignity - nature endows us with no such qualities.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Of course not, that is why I said "if" in my original post on this. But the fact remains, God can endow humanity with inherent worth and dignity - nature endows us with no such qualities.
                    Make a deductive statement showing that God can endow human dignity and I will show you why it does not apply.
                    "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Charles View Post
                      Make a deductive statement showing that God can endow human dignity and I will show you why it does not apply.
                      Is there something wrong with you?
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Is there something wrong with you?
                        Its an interesting question seer. God is almighty, so anything that can possible be obtained, anything that can real at all, He can obtain. However you've left dignity and worth undefined. You haven't explained how God is able to bestow this, namely, why anything can have dignity and worth at all. While I agree with you that the only way to explain these things is through theism, Charles is right to challenge you on making sense of these things. He is under no obligation to simple grant you those.

                        You might appeal to intuition: We know what we're talking about when we talk about 'dignity' and 'worth', but in a rational discussion you might actually have to make sense of these transcendentals.

                        They require quite a bit of explication, and its a bit beyond me frankly. I'd personally just refer people to the writings of Ed Feser, and others who take the Scholastic line of reasoning.
                        Last edited by Leonhard; 08-02-2017, 11:33 AM.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                          Its an interesting question seer. God is almighty, so anything that can possible be obtained, anything that can real at all, He can obtain. However you've left dignity and worth undefined. You haven't explained how God is able to bestow this, namely, why anything can have dignity and worth at all. While I agree with you that the only way to explain these things is through theism, Charles is right to challenge you on making sense of these things. He is under no obligation to simple grant you those.

                          You might appeal to intuition: We know what we're talking about when we talk about 'dignity' and 'worth', but in a rational discussion you might actually have to make sense of these transcendentals.

                          They require quite a bit of explication, and its a bit beyond me frankly. I'd personally just refer people to the writings of Ed Feser, and others who take the Scholastic line of reasoning.
                          Well I would appeal to Revelation, that we are created in the image of God and created for a purpose. That is where I would start.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Well I would appeal to Revelation, that we are created in the image of God and created for a purpose. That is where I would start.
                            And how would you proceed? So far I don't see how this proves we have dignity, or perhaps I misunderstood?
                            "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Charles View Post
                              And how would you proceed? So far I don't see how this proves we have dignity, or perhaps I misunderstood?
                              Just to make sure everyone is on the same track:

                              Dignity: the state or quality of being worthy of honor or respect.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Charles View Post
                                And how would you proceed? So far I don't see how this proves we have dignity, or perhaps I misunderstood?
                                Charles, I'm not saying that it proves we have inherent worth or purpose or dignity only that nature does not endow us with such inherent properties but that God could.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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