Human Dignity?

[Sparko]

Charles, I think you and Seer both agree that human beings HAVE dignity as a whole, as a species. You are just arguing about WHY they have it. Is it because of God? Because of Nature? Because of something else?

[Charles]

Charles, I'm not saying that it proves we have inherent worth or purpose or dignity only that nature does not endow us with such inherent properties but that God could.

And what I am asking is you to prove or at least explain how God could even do that.

[shunyadragon]

I am speaking of inherent worth or dignity, not what we subjectively decide or not decide is worthy. And humans kill other humans, war and steal, rape, etc... So no, inherent worth is not possible with materialism, unless you can demonstrate otherwise.

In summary of what I posted before you did not respond to is that, yes, humans have apparent dignity and worth, but you cannot present any objective verifiable evidence that this cannot evolve naturally, which it has been demonstrated that self-identity is present in other primates and intelligent mammals. Your assertion that this is only possibly inherent, as of only Divine origin is an assertion only. You are hanging on a very subjective claim that the attributes of humans to cannot come about naturally through evolution. Of course, you cannot demonstrated the negative in this argument. This remains an assertion on your part only to justify your agenda, and not a viable argument,

[shunyadragon]

Charles, I think you and Seer both agree that human beings HAVE dignity as a whole, as a species. You are just arguing about WHY they have it. Is it because of God? Because of Nature? Because of something else?

Something else is unlikely (aliens?), dignity and self worth simply exists as attributes of human nature. It cannot not be objectively determined whether 'Dignity and Self-worth,' nor falsified, as to whether ir is natural origin through evolution, or of Divine origin. It may be believed from the perspective of the belief in God and Creation, but this remains a belief not based pn unbiased objective verifiable evidence.

[Tassman]

That is just stupid Tass, it does not follow that therefore there is inherent human dignity or worth. Inherent means we have a quality by nature, that is not the case if materialism is true.

Of course it is. Human dignity or worth is what we define it to be and it is grounded in our evolved, instinctive notions of altruism, cooperation and mutual reciprocity. Not endowed by God.

Any more than a house fly has inherent worth.

False equivalence! A house fly has not evolved with the same instinctive needs and attributes as humans

[seer]

And what I am asking is you to prove or at least explain how God could even do that.

Charles it would flow from purpose and ontology. Were we created for a purpose and what are we by nature. So as God's unique image bearers we have a greater inherent worth than animals for instance, and a value that is linked to a God given purpose.

[seer]

Something else is unlikely (aliens?), dignity and self worth simply exists as attributes of human nature. It cannot not be objectively determined whether 'Dignity and Self-worth,' nor falsified, as to whether ir is natural origin through evolution, or of Divine origin. It may be believed from the perspective of the belief in God and Creation, but this remains a belief not based pn unbiased objective verifiable evidence.

So what if it is not objectively determined Shuny? You believe that humans have immaterial souls, apart from objective verifiable evidence.

[seer]

Of course it is. Human dignity or worth is what we define it to be and it is grounded in our evolved, instinctive notions of altruism, cooperation and mutual reciprocity. Not endowed by God.

Yes, these are subjective consideration, not inherent qualities.

False equivalence! A house fly has not evolved with the same instinctive needs and attributes as humans

Nonsense Tass, we are speaking of an inherent quality, and a house fly too has instinctive needs and attributes, just different than ours. You are simply a bigot displaying your Speciesism again!

[Charles]

Charles it would flow from purpose and ontology. Were we created for a purpose and what are we by nature. So as God's unique image bearers we have a greater inherent worth than animals for instance, and a value that is linked to a God given purpose.

But how do you prove the purpose to be good? Some would say God's purpose is that they should kill non-believers. You would say that is not the purpose. So you say one thing they say another. Is this more than your subjective opinion? If so then where is the logical foundation for your claims to be wrong and them to be right. So far I see nothing but subjective opinions and words about "God's unique image bearers" but what is the "original" that we are an image of. How is the original worthy or proven good?

Like I said so far you have offered nothing but a subjective view that does nothing to explain why human beings are worthy.

[shunyadragon]

So what if it is not objectively determined Shuny? You believe that humans have immaterial souls, apart from objective verifiable evidence.

Of course, I believe the immaterial soul is not verifiable by objective evidence, but that is not the issue. In the Baha'i Faith the soul is independent and separate from the brain and the mind.

Unfortunately others and you are citing people like Chalmers and others as if there is objective verifiable evidence that the mind is independent and separate from the brain, justifying that the mind and consciousness as separate and independent from the Brain. The argument is plagued by weak 'arguing from ignorance.'

[seer]

But how do you prove the purpose to be good? Some would say God's purpose is that they should kill non-believers. You would say that is not the purpose. So you say one thing they say another. Is this more than your subjective opinion? If so then where is the logical foundation for your claims to be wrong and them to be right. So far I see nothing but subjective opinions and words about "God's unique image bearers" but what is the "original" that we are an image of. How is the original worthy or proven good?

But I'm not speaking of what is good Charles. I'm only making the case for inherent value and why we have value. What one considers "good" can be completely different depending on the person or culture. With theism you have the option of there being a purpose for human beings - no such purpose exists with nature alone as our creator.

Like I said so far you have offered nothing but a subjective view that does nothing to explain why human beings are worthy.

But I did tell you why, and that offers a source for inherent value. You may not agree, but so what? So either you believe that humans do not have inherent value/purpose, or if you do you need to tell us why or how this value comes about when nature does not and can not create us with this intrinsic property.

[seer]

Of course, I believe the immaterial soul is not verifiable by objective evidence, but that is not the issue.

Right so the soul is real even though we can not objectively prove it.

Unfortunately others and you are citing people like Chalmers and others as if there is objective verifiable evidence that the mind is independent and separate from the brain, justifying that the mind and consciousness as separate and independent from the Brain. The argument is plagued by weak 'arguing from ignorance.'

And your own religion states that the mind, though connected to the brain, is different from the brain and immaterial, and beyond science to investigate.

[Charles]

But I'm not speaking of what is good Charles. I'm only making the case for inherent value and why we have value. What one considers "good" can be completely different depending on the person or culture. With theism you have the option of there being a purpose for human beings - no such purpose exists with nature alone as our creator.



But I did tell you why, and that offers a source for inherent value. You may not agree, but so what? So either you believe that humans do not have inherent value/purpose, or if you do you need to tell us why or how this value comes about when nature does not and can not create us with this intrinsic property.

But what is the value of that value? I mean, you cannot prove or show how God is even good if I understand you correctly? And what is the purpose and how do you show that it is the right purpose? To claim there can be purpose but giving no acount as to how or why seems rather weak. You may go for this subjectively, but I don't see how this can apply to anyone else.

[seer]

But what is the value of that value? I mean, you cannot prove or show how God is even good if I understand you correctly? And what is the purpose and how do you show that it is the right purpose? To claim there can be purpose but giving no acount as to how or why seems rather weak. You may go for this subjectively, but I don't see how this can apply to anyone else.

Charles, do you believe that humans have inherent value/purpose or not - yes or no?

[shunyadragon]

Right so the soul is real even though we can not objectively prove it.

This represents a belief based on faith, and not an issue here.

And your own religion states that the mind, though connected to the brain, is different from the brain and immaterial, and beyond science to investigate.

No, not beyond science to investigate. Brain and the mind is like the sun in the mirror, mind reflects the brain and can be observed and investigated by science. The mind than represents the intermediary between the mind and soul. The soul cannot be investigated by science.

"" Extract, letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, June 7th, 1946 from Arohanui: Letters to New Zealand, p. 89)