Human Dignity?

[Charles]

Charles, do you believe that humans have inherent value/purpose or not - yes or no?

That is not an answer at all. Have you got anything, seer? I am asking for your explanation and you have not even come close to giving anything. Do you need to know what I think in order to know your own position?

[seer]

This represents a belief based on faith, and not an issue here.

So - does that make it any less true? We have a soul - that is a fact. Correct?

No, not beyond science to investigate. Brain and the mind is like the sun in the mirror, mind reflects the brain and can be observed and investigated by science. The mind than represents the intermediary between the mind and soul. The soul cannot be investigated by science.

"What the Bahá'ís do believe though is that we have three aspects of our humanness, so to speak, a body, a mind and an immortal identity -- soul or spirit. We believe the mind forms a link between the soul and the body, and the two interact on each other." Extract, letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, June 7th, 1946 from Arohanui: Letters to New Zealand, p. 89)

Shuny, is the mind material or immaterial?

"The mind which is in man – where is it in him? If
you examine the body with the eye, the ear or the other senses,
you will not find it; nevertheless it exists. Therefore the mind has
no place but it is connected with the brain…In the same way love
has no place, but it is connected to the heart…”

Baha’u’lláh’

[seer]

That is not an answer at all. Have you got anything, seer? I am asking for your explanation and you have not even come close to giving anything. Do you need to know what I think in order to know your own position?

I gave you an answer, I gave a possible source for inherent human value/purpose. So now answer my question - do you believe that humans have inherent value/purpose or not?

[Charles]

I gave you an answer, I gave a possible source for inherent human value/purpose. So now answer my question - do you believe that humans have inherent value/purpose or not?

You made the statement, yes. But you have failed to answer even the most basic questions. There is no showing how it is possible at all.

[seer]

You made the statement, yes. But you have failed to answer even the most basic questions. There is no showing how it is possible at all.

I have no idea what you are on about. You are once again going off on a tangent. I mean do you want me to prove that God created men? That He created them for a purpose? What the hell are you asking? Again - do you believe that humans have inherent value/purpose or not?

[shunyadragon]

So - does that make it any less true? We have a soul - that is a fact. Correct?

Question answered, and not an issue of this thread.

Shuny, is the mind material or immaterial?

The mind is directly connected to the material brain in Baha'i belief. The mind itself is not material regardless of your world view whether Theist, Deist or Philosophical Naturalist.

[seer]

Question answered, and not an issue of this thread.

That is not the point Shuny - the point is the soul is real, a fact whether we can objectively prove it or not.

The mind is directly connected to the material brain in Baha'i belief. The mind itself is not material regardless of your world view whether Theist, Deist or Philosophical Naturalist.

Yes, it is connected to the brain but it is not the brain. And as you said - not material - therefore the mind can not be investigated by science. Only the physical brain can.

[shunyadragon]

That is not the point Shuny - the point is the soul is real, a fact whether we can objectively prove it or not.

I answered the question with no further need of discussion.

Yes, it is connected to the brain but it is not the brain. And as you said - not material - therefore the mind can not be investigated by science. Only the physical brain can.

Disagree, the direct connection with the brain, and the mind reflects the brain like the sun is reflected in the mirror and it can be investigated by science by studying the physical brain, because of the direct connection. This is the Baha'i view, and very reasonable.

[Tassman]

I have no idea what you are on about. You are once again going off on a tangent. I mean do you want me to prove that God created men? That He created them for a purpose? What the hell are you asking?

You can’t prove this, it’s merely an assertion based on belief and faith and irrelevant to the discussion outside of a Church or bible-study.

Again - do you believe that humans have inherent value/purpose or not?

Of course humans have inherent value and purpose. The natural evolution of human behaviour is to ensure the survival of the family and community and cooperation so that the human species survives. This is the inherent value and purpose of humans as evolved via natural selection.

[seer]

You can’t prove this, it’s merely an assertion based on belief and faith and irrelevant to the discussion outside of a Church or bible-study.

Right, I can not prove it, nor can you prove me wrong or prove that this universe was created from a natural source. But that is not my point, which is apart from God there is no inherent value or purpose.

Of course humans have inherent value and purpose. The natural evolution of human behaviour is to ensure the survival of the family and community and cooperation so that the human species survives. This is the inherent value and purpose of humans as evolved via natural selection.

Again Tass that has nothing to do with inherent purpose. Nature did not create us to survive, and could care less if we did survive. We have no more inherent purpose than the dinosaurs.

[seer]

I answered the question with no further need of discussion.

In case this is going over you head, I am pointing to your hypocrisy. You accused me of believing something that was not based on "objective verifiable evidence." But so what? That wouldn't make it any less true, or less of a fact - like your belief in the soul.

Disagree, the direct connection with the brain, and the mind reflects the brain like the sun is reflected in the mirror and it can be investigated by science by studying the physical brain, because of the direct connection. This is the Baha'i view, and very reasonable.

Again Shuny, is the mind material or immaterial?

[shunyadragon]

In case this is going over you head, I am pointing to your hypocrisy. You accused me of believing something that was not based on "objective verifiable evidence." But so what? That wouldn't make it any less true, or less of a fact - like your belief in the soul.

. . . because you were trying to demonstrate, or falsify that the mind is independent of the brain and not intimately related to brain, by citing Chambers and other sources, making a weak 'argument from ignorance' to justify your position. I made no such claim concerning the soul, and made my position clear on my belief in the soul without objective verifiable evidence.

The issue here is the nature and relationship between the brain and the mind in 'Substance Dualism.' The Baha'i view is not 'Substance Dualism' by definition.

Again Shuny, is the mind material or immaterial?

Again, again, again and again . . .

Disagree, the direct connection with the brain, and the mind reflects the brain like the sun is reflected in the mirror and it can be investigated by science by studying the physical brain, because of the direct connection. This is the Baha'i view, and very reasonable.

The mind is directly connected to the material brain.

[seer]

. . . because you were trying to demonstrate, or falsify that the mind is independent of the brain and not intimately related to brain, by citing Chambers and other sources, making a weak 'argument from ignorance' to justify your position. I made no such claim concerning the soul, and made my position clear on my belief in the soul without objective verifiable evidence.

I never said that the mind was independent of the brain Shuny, I hold to Emergent Dualism - and this is a fact, science can not explain consciousness. Will it in the future? Who knows.

The issue here is the nature and relationship between the brain and the mind in 'Substance Dualism.' The Baha'i view is not 'Substance Dualism' by definition.

You are still a dualist Shuny - the body and soul - both being of a different substance.

Again, again, again and again . . .

Disagree, the direct connection with the brain, and the mind reflects the brain like the sun is reflected in the mirror and it can be investigated by science by studying the physical brain, because of the direct connection. This is the Baha'i view, and very reasonable.

The mind is directly connected to the material brain.

But the reflection in a mirror is a physical thing, so it can be investigated - the mind according to your prophet is not a physical thing. Try again...

[Charles]

Right, I can not prove it, nor can you prove me wrong or prove that this universe was created from a natural source. But that is not my point, which is apart from God there is no inherent value or purpose.

And you have failed to show the value of those values or why the purpose is one we should go for. Some would say God's purpose is that we should kill non-believers. You would claim it is something different. But I am yet to see you put any real meaning into the word purpose and value. It seems it is still words you use for your subjective preferences. So I fail to see how you have got a point.

[seer]

And you have failed to show the value of those values or why the purpose is one we should go for. Some would say God's purpose is that we should kill non-believers. You would claim it is something different. But I am yet to see you put any real meaning into the word purpose and value. It seems it is still words you use for your subjective preferences. So I fail to see how you have got a point.

Charles, I still don't know what you are on about. My only point is that God can create human beings for a purpose, an inherent purpose - nature does not and can not. Only intention and intelligence can do that. It is completely immaterial as to which possible God or purpose we are speaking of, the point remains.