John 8:42 & 16:27-30, Trinitarian view?

[Uriyah]

The holey Trinity is taught to be that the Father and the Son are both omnipresent.

Jhn 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came out of God; neither came I from myself, but he sent me.

John 16:27-30 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

Now, assuming Jesus is omnipresent, how can he come out of God who is omnipresent?

Omnipresent: Present everywhere simultaneously.

[Jaltus]

Today @ 02:03 AM post located here
Uriyah:

The holey (sic) Trinity is taught to be that the Father and the Son are both omnipresent.

Now, assuming Jesus is omnipresent, how can he come out of God who is omnipresent?

Omnipresent: Present everywhere simultaneously.

Actually, omnipresent is much more nuanced than just "present everywhere," for God is not a physical thing. He is present without being physically present. Jesus is God. Thus, God is omnipresent and so both the Father and Son are omnipresent because God is. There are not two separate beings, there is one being, God, and two persons, the Son and Father (with respect to this argument).

Second, the verses referred to are obviously about the incarnation, the physical presence of the Son. Just as the Father took shape as the cloud and pillar of fire, thus being at one spot materially, so the Son was at one spot materially during the incarnation. His body was sent, but His spirit could still be everywhere.

[Uriyah]

Although I disagree, it is your answer, so I'll move on.

[AVmetro]

Good post, Jaltus.

-AV

[ollie]

12-16-2003 @ 03:03 AM post located here
Uriyah:

The holey Trinity is taught to be that the Father and the Son are both omnipresent.

Jhn 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came out of God; neither came I from myself, but he sent me.

John 16:27-30 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

Now, assuming Jesus is omnipresent, how can he come out of God who is omnipresent?

Omnipresent: Present everywhere simultaneously.

The two you mention are only two/thirds of the Godhead. Two do not make three and is not trinitarian it is dual.
You omitted the Holy Spirit.

[Reader]

Uriyah:


Now, assuming Jesus is omnipresent, how can he come out of God who is omnipresent?

Jesus Christ was not omnipresent while he walked the earth in the flesh. That was one of His riches and glories that He put aside in order to incarnate and willingly subject Himself to God the Father in this world.

And Jesus Christ did not "come out of God." Jesus Christ came ~from~ God; He was "sent" by the Father as the only begotten Son.

God in essence is self-existent.

"The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Spirit uncreate. . .The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding."
The Athanasian Creed

http://www.reformed.org/documents/athanasian.html

[tate4242]

"The holey Trinity is taught to be that the Father and the Son are both omnipresent."

Greetings Uriyah,
Actually, Yahshua/Jesus stated emphatically while here with us that he could of his own self do nothing, it was the Father who did the works through him. There is a difference between Yahshua/Jesus, the man, and Yahshua after he was resurrected. Yes, Yahshua did request that he be glorified again, with the glory that he had had with the Father previous to the creation of the earth. I highly recommend the ancient "Book of Adam and Eve" to read more of the prediction that the Word, the title of the member of the Elohim who met with Adam and Eve, would come to the earth as a human, be killed, and save Adam and his faithful descendants from his sin and fall.

"Jhn 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came out of God; neither came I from myself, but he sent me."

I prefer the scientific analogy when attempting to explain a question such as this one. Present quantum theory at this time indicates that space and time are not at all limited to our four dimensional space-time continuum. In a fifth space time dimension electromagnetism would mathematically be a component of gravity. The four basic forces, electromagnetism, gravity, weak and strong nuclear can be unified in ten dimensions. It is thought that the superforce resembles strings and waves that probably exist in all ten dimensions.

The "superforce" as well as super energetic matter would almost certainly predate the Big Bang because obviously, since space is made out of energy, then the stuff which composed our universe is unlikely to have just came into existence right at the "time" of the Big Bang. Since the basic atomic particles would be inert without the four forces acting on them, then it can be observed that the magnitude level of each of the four forces is incredibly well tuned for life as we know it to exist.

I believe that God/The Creator/YHVH might not mind being termed the thinking intelligent life form who "evolved" in the superforce/super energetic matter. I assume that God, at one point in "time" did not know how to create duck billed platypus's, but eventually He discovered every necessary detail to make them just as we have them now.

Just as you could conceivably purchase a special computer monitor and send it to me by UPS and later on speak to me from your home, as if right beside me, so also The Creator has designed serious technological capabilities.

Although we cannot fully comprehend the incarnation of the soul of Moshiach into Yahshua/Jesus, at this time in history we should be well able to visualize YHVH in possession of greater technology than our own! Could YHVH accomplish a feat such as cloning his own identity if He wished? Perhaps, and then again perhaps this is a very flawed analogy. But if a human scientist can clone himself then surely the though must have crossed the mind of the Eternal scientist who visualized our existence, long before we took our first breath.



"It should not be
John 16:27-30 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

Now, assuming Jesus is omnipresent, how can he come out of God who is omnipresent?

Omnipresent: Present everywhere simultaneously."

OK, back to the computer monitor analogy again. Obviously if you had personal wealth in the billions of dollars you could place sophistocated computer monitors in numerous locations. You could observe what is happening in a particular location one moment, and speak to somebody there for twenty seconds, then click a button, and view and speak to somebody else 5000 miles away only seconds later.

In the near future it is quite conceivable that you might well be able to clone your physical body and perhaps play a role in the programming for the physical and mental characteristics that this other version of you would possess.

By keeping in mind that the higher space-time dimensions postulated in super string theory are operating at unbelievably high levels of energy, it becomes much easier to visualize a Father in heaven doing work through a mere man here on the earth. In the Psalms it states that the earth is YHVH's footstool. In the New Testament our feet are compared with the gospel/good news, so obviously YHVH can speak through His son Yahshua/Jesus, and tell us things that had been kept secret from the foundation of the earth.

A Dr. Chaim Tejman has a fascinating theory uniting the theory of everything even with medicine. His theory would sure fit with the incredible healing miracles that occurred during the ministry of Yahshua/Jesus.

How does the omnipresent YHVH send His Son into the earth and speak/heal and work through him? No problem, YHVH is a very good scientist/inventor/archetict/engineer and manufacturer of high tech goods, most of which are invisible, (according to the present theories of everything anyway)!

[o2bwise]

Hi Reader,

How can the Son of God be self-existent while being a Son?

Does not Sonship require the prerogative of God to have a Son? Is not dependance on the prerogative of another for one's very existence in contradiction to being self-existent?

I confess Christ to be the Son of the Living God.

God Bless,

Tony (o2)

[Uriyah]

12-21-2003 @ 07:31 PM post located here
ollie:

The two you mention are only two/thirds of the Godhead. Two do not make three and is not trinitarian it is dual.
You omitted the Holy Spirit.

I omitted the Holy Spirit? LOL, no, there is NO mention of the Holy Spirit there, so it is not I, but the NT writers.

[Trinitarian]

12-16-2003 @ 08:19 PM post located here
Jaltus:

Second, the verses referred to are obviously about the incarnation, the physical presence of the Son. Just as the Father took shape as the cloud and pillar of fire, thus being at one spot materially, so the Son was at one spot materially during the incarnation. His body was sent, but His spirit could still be everywhere.

Very good answer here. I don't necessarily disagree with it, however I would like to offer an alternate answer.

When speaking of the attributes of God, we msut remember that they are attributes that describe the Triune God himself. We cannot simply predicate the totality of those attributes onto the distince persons of the Trinity in identical ways. Thus the Son does not have to be present tot he world in the same sense that the Father is for the Trinitarian doctrine of omnipresence to be coherent. Rather I would say that the Son as incarnate in Jesus is the omnipresence of the Triune God in action. In other words in the incarnation, God's presence to the world is affirmed and demonstrated. There is no contradiction here only trinitarian harmony and polyphony.

[AVmetro]

Hey, Trinitarian. Long time no see :-)

-AV

[Trinitarian]

01-14-2004 @ 05:58 AM post located here
AVmetro:

Hey, Trinitarian. Long time no see :-)

-AV

Hey. I know, I've been busy, but now I finally have high speed wireless internet, so I have more chances to post! Yay! I should be around a bit more now.

[AVmetro]

Trinitarian:

Hey. I know, I've been busy, but now I finally have high speed wireless internet, so I have more chances to post! Yay! I should be around a bit more now.

Cool.

[emulator]

If you look at a penny from one side do you see heads or tails?
Does that effect the merits of the penny? (is it still worth one cent?)
Is the penny still a penny from either face?
Are they uniquely a penny?

[Trinitarian]

Today @ 12:08 AM post located here
AVmetro:



Cool.

Yes. Yes it is.