Mueller impanels grand jury, is granted subpoenas

[Cow Poke]

Well, there you're starting on the slope to being tried twice for the same crime.

Sure. So let's stay on the slope that causes innocent people to slide into unnecessary trials just because the prosecution gets to speak unopposed.

[Roy]

Sure. So let's stay on the slope that causes innocent people to slide into unnecessary trials just because the prosecution gets to speak unopposed.

Is that better or worse than the slope that causes innocent people to slide into unnecessary grand jury hearings?

At the moment, there is a hurdle the prosecutors must overcome before a defendant is called to trial. By adding a defence component to a grand jury hearing you'd be ensuring that innocent people always have to defend themselves, rather than only having to defend themselves if the grand jury considered there was enough evidence to make a formal accusation. You'd be increasing the number of innocents facing legal proceedings.

(This of course assumes that the grand jury system is being run as originally conceived and not being manipulated)

[Cow Poke]

Is that better or worse than the slope that causes innocent people to slide into unnecessary grand jury hearings?

At the moment, there is a hurdle the prosecutors must overcome before a defendant is called to trial.

Being entirely one-sided, it's not much of a hurdle.

By adding a defence component to a grand jury hearing you'd be ensuring that innocent people always have to defend themselves, rather than only having to defend themselves if the grand jury considered there was enough evidence to make a formal accusation. You'd be increasing the number of innocents facing legal proceedings.

(This of course assumes that the grand jury system is being run as originally conceived and not being manipulated)

Well, first, I think that's a big assumption. I know of a number of cases personally where just a few simple facts that were omitted by the prosecution could easily have resulted in a no bill.

Secondly, I don't understand why the emphasis is on "have to" defend themselves. If I were called before a grand jury, I would WANT an opportunity to have my side of the story told, possibly preventing me from having to endure the expense and other consequences of a trial.

I guess I just don't have the confidence you do that the grand jury process is not being manipulated to the prosecution's advantage.

[Mountain Man]

I guess I just don't have the confidence you do that the grand jury process is not being manipulated to the prosecution's advantage.

It seems obvious this is happening here. Mueller is using (abusing?) the power of the grand jury to extend the reach and scope of his investigation far beyond his original mandate

[Bill the Cat]

Hillary had more votes.

That doesn't refute the claim Mike made that Trump is the "duly elected president". That you don't like our system of electing our top leader isn't our concern.

Your country's pretense at "democracy" is absurd

We are a representative republic first and foremost. That you, a whiny liberal foreigner doesn't like it - is again - not our concern

and your constitution ridiculous.

A 1987 Time Magazine report found that roughly 160 countries around the world had governing documents modeled at least in some part after the U.S. Constitution.

As Sanford Levinson wrote in 2006 in “Our Undemocratic Constitution,” “the U.S. Constitution is the most difficult to amend of any constitution currently existing in the world today.” (Yugoslavia used to hold that title, but Yugoslavia did not work out.) Other nations routinely trade in their constitutions wholesale, replacing them on average every 19 years.

[Sparko]

That doesn't refute the claim Mike made that Trump is the "duly elected president". That you don't like our system of electing our top leader isn't our concern.



We are a representative republic first and foremost. That you, a whiny liberal foreigner doesn't like it - is again - not our concern



A 1987 Time Magazine report found that roughly 160 countries around the world had governing documents modeled at least in some part after the U.S. Constitution.

The rights guaranteed by the American Constitution are parsimonious by international standards, and they are frozen in amber. As Sanford Levinson wrote in 2006 in “Our Undemocratic Constitution,” “the U.S. Constitution is the most difficult to amend of any constitution currently existing in the world today.” (Yugoslavia used to hold that title, but Yugoslavia did not work out.) Other nations routinely trade in their constitutions wholesale, replacing them on average every 19 years.

yeah maybe we should be more like Venezuela. lol.

[NorrinRadd]

I like the way Jonathan Turley calls the whole thing a crazy fishing expedition without actually using those words.

[Mountain Man]

It's the definition of a fishing expedition:

----------

(Breitbart) CNN reported Thursday, that sources close to the investigation told them they are hopeful “the web of financial ties could offer a more concrete path toward potential prosecution than the broader and murkier questions of collusion in the 2016 campaign.”

After this striking admission, in effect acknowledging the weakness of the “Russian collusion” narrative more than year into the investigation and media hysteria, CNN goes on to report that these claimed grand jury subpoenas extend completely outside the scope of the supposed “Russia” investigation. CNN describes some subpoenas as “unconnected to the 2016 elections” and gives examples, including the tenant lists of Trump Organization properties and documents related to the 2013 Miss Universe pageant in Moscow.

...

The fact that such wide reaching subpoenas are being issued, even if legally permissible, indicates that Mueller may have left his original mission behind in the search for indictable crimes.

If Mueller does overstep the bounds of his commission it would fall to the DOJ official who appointed Mueller and oversees him in the special counsel role, Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, to recognize that occurrence and take steps to refocus the investigation.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...ference-probe/

----------

Let's hope the Justice Department does its job and protects our President from this unprecedented witchhunt.

[Tassman]

That's the intent. Unfortunately, a zealous prosecutor can push a case into the legal system that shouldn't be there.

And, when it gets to trial, this will undoubtedly be the argument made by the stupid part of America that foisted Trump on the world.

[Cow Poke]

And, when it gets to trial, this will undoubtedly be the argument made by the stupid part of America that foisted Trump on the world.

So, you've already decided it's going to trial? Weren't you one of the ones pretending to "wait to see where the facts lead"?

[Mountain Man]

This is interesting...

Source: USA Today

Mueller's use of the Washington grand jury was first disclosed Thursday by the Wall Street Journal.

The apparent expansion of the inquiry appeared to take Trump's legal team by surprise.

John Dowd, Trump's lead outside attorney, said he had not been made aware of the Washington panel's involvement prior to the published report. But he believed that Trump was not a target of the inquiry.

"With respect to reports of a federal grand jury, I have no reason to believe that President Trump is being investigated,'' Dowd said.

Ty Cobb, special White House counsel, said that he, too, had been unaware of the Washington panel until late Thursday, but pledged cooperation.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ies/540959001/

© Copyright Original Source

[Sea of red]

It's the definition of a fishing expedition:

----------

(Breitbart) CNN reported Thursday, that sources close to the investigation told them they are hopeful “the web of financial ties could offer a more concrete path toward potential prosecution than the broader and murkier questions of collusion in the 2016 campaign.”

After this striking admission, in effect acknowledging the weakness of the “Russian collusion” narrative more than year into the investigation and media hysteria, CNN goes on to report that these claimed grand jury subpoenas extend completely outside the scope of the supposed “Russia” investigation. CNN describes some subpoenas as “unconnected to the 2016 elections” and gives examples, including the tenant lists of Trump Organization properties and documents related to the 2013 Miss Universe pageant in Moscow.

...

The fact that such wide reaching subpoenas are being issued, even if legally permissible, indicates that Mueller may have left his original mission behind in the search for indictable crimes.

If Mueller does overstep the bounds of his commission it would fall to the DOJ official who appointed Mueller and oversees him in the special counsel role, Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, to recognize that occurrence and take steps to refocus the investigation.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...ference-probe/

----------

Let's hope the Justice Department does its job and protects our President from this unprecedented witchhunt.

Poor Trumpy

That's how the old ball bounces. Ken Starr was given permission to pursue things totally unrelated to Whitewater that went into other territories because other scandals were uncovered in that investigation. Liberals blames Starr but it was Clintons own fault for constantly attacking him, and bringing these crimes to public attention in the first place. That's what's happening with Trump. He brought attention to himself, and now he's in a mess.

If that's what happens here, it perfectly legitimate. The only thing that Rosenstein could do would be to dismiss Mueller, and both of them would be called before the Congress undoubtedly. If the Congress believes what Mueller was pursing is legitimate, they can appoint another prosecutor - just like with Clinton.

[rogue06]

Poor Trumpy

That's how the old ball bounces. Ken Starr was given permission to pursue things totally unrelated to Whitewater that went into other territories because other scandals were uncovered in that investigation. Liberals blames Starr but it was Clintons own fault for constantly attacking him, and bringing these crimes to public attention in the first place. That's what's happening with Trump. He brought attention to himself, and now he's in a mess.

If that's what happens here, it perfectly legitimate. The only thing that Rosenstein could do would be to dismiss Mueller, and both of them would be called before the Congress undoubtedly. If the Congress believes what Mueller was pursing is legitimate, they can appoint another prosecutor - just like with Clinton.

I wonder if Trump and his people will lie through their teeth about the nature of the questions asked them by Mueller like the Clintonistas did about Starr.

[RumTumTugger]

Hillary had more votes. Your country's pretense at "democracy" is absurd and your constitution ridiculous.

As Bill said we aren't a pure democracy our founding fathers knew that a pure democracy would be a terrible system of government and developed a Constitutionally protected Republic which has been stable for 250 years. we survived the war of 1812,Civil War etc.. and our system built on that "ridiculous" Constitution has made us rich enough to go to the aid of other countries when disasters strike them. whine about it all you want Starlight it is no concern of ours.

So you have the Nixonian view that the president is above the law, can't commit crimes, and shouldn't be investigated for them?

No we Americans have the Constitutional view that a person is innocent until proven guilty that includes our President. Something you refuse to understand Starlight. What is happening here is not people trying to get at the truth but a witch hunt by whiny kids who lost the election and refuse to take responsibility for the actions they did that caused it.

[rogue06]

As Bill said we aren't a pure democracy our founding fathers knew that a pure democracy would be a terrible system of government and developed a Constitutionally protected Republic which has been stable for 250 years.

Stop being silly RTT. You should know better than questioning starlight who knows soooo much more about American government and society than anybody who lives here.