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Divine Right
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostA show of calculated contempt for a particularly stubborn and thickheaded opponent is a long and honored tradition in public debates. See the following for a comprehensive analysis of the topic:
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/madmad.php
http://the-anointed-one.com/hold.htm
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
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"all" can be a sweeping generalisation, or hyperbolic ... even in English, and more so in Koine Greek. In Koine Greek "all" can also have the standard English meaning of no exceptions ... it's just more likely to be a sweeping generalisation.
As pointed out previously, if you don't want exceptions to the "all" in Romans, you have to allow that even emperors are subject to the command, and pagans generally as much as Christians. (the letter being directed at Christians specifically, and not to any other groups, there is already a limit to the scope of "all" in this passage.)
All humans are sinners, or does "all" not mean "all".
As for your later calls to the wider context of scripture: you have established that Paul says Christians are to be subject to even wrongful rulers - while wider context also shows that a wrongful command must be defied. This is a matter similar to situational ethics: a paradox, not a contradiction. (and yes, I do find that there are contradictions in the Bible: it is just that this isn't one of them.)1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Terraceth View PostAgain, as St. Chrysostom argued:
For there is no power, he says, but of God. What say you? It may be said; is every ruler then elected by God? This I do not say, he answers. Nor am I now speaking about individual rulers, but about the thing in itself. For that there should be rulers, and some rule and others be ruled, and that all things should not just be carried on in one confusion, the people swaying like waves in this direction and that; this, I say, is the work of God's wisdom. Hence he does not say, for there is no ruler but of God; but it is the thing he speaks of, and says, there is no power but of God. And the powers that be, are ordained of God. Thus when a certain wise man says, It is by the Lord that a man is matched with a woman he means this, God made marriage, and not that it is He that joins together every man that comes to be with a woman. For we see many that come to be with one another for evil, even by the law of marriage, and this we should not ascribe to God.
According to him, when Paul refers to the "authorities" (or "powers" in the quoted translation) in Romans 13:1-2, he is referring to the fact governing authorities exist has been instituted by God, rather than saying every individual government or ruler is instituted by God, so what Paul is doing here is rejecting the idea of anarchy.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostAs for your later calls to the wider context of scripture: you have established that Paul says Christians are to be subject to even wrongful rulers - while wider context also shows that a wrongful command must be defied. This is a matter similar to situational ethics: a paradox, not a contradiction. (and yes, I do find that there are contradictions in the Bible: it is just that this isn't one of them.)
You say a wider context shows that a wrongful command must be defied. Even that will take some interpretation regarding what a wrongful command is. In Peter 2,18 it says "Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust." So, again, my point is different interpretations are possible. Historically the consequences of that have been catastrophic which I initially pointed to.
If this was God's clear and timeless message for us, I would have thought it would not leave us in doubt to this degree.Last edited by Charles; 08-12-2017, 03:33 AM.
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
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Originally posted by Charles View PostThank you for your reply. My main point is that Paul leaves it too open. Like I initially said this is confusing at best.
You say a wider context shows that a wrongful command must be defied. Even that will take some interpretation regarding what a wrongful command is. In Peter 2,18 it says "Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust." So, again, my point is different interpretations are possible. Historically the consequences of that have been catastrophic which I initially pointed to.
If this was God's clear and timeless message for us, I would have thought it would not leave us in doubt to this degree.
The whole "be subject to" bit takes consideration: Despite defying commands to discontinue the preaching of Christ from "higher authorities," it can be said that the disciples involved did submit to those same higher authorities (inasmuch that they did not resist the consequences for their disobedience). Christians (and others, including a Shintoist (now there's a story)) defied the Nazis by smuggling Jews out of danger.
BUT ... Where does this concept of "the divine right of kings" arise? As others in the thread have pointed out (or at least alluded to): it does not seem that the Bible extends anyone the right to indulge in unjust behaviour.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Yes! And what about our predecessors. One hundred thousand years ago, at least six human species inhabited the earth. Today there is just one. Us. Homo sapiens. (Prof. Yuval Noah Harari, Department of History, Hebrew University of Jerusalem). They also had structured societies. One wonders, were they also subject to authorities instituted by God? Or are we seeing yet more of the insular god of the bible ruling over the very limited, simplistic world as it was understood by the likes of Paul?
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Originally posted by Tassmoron View Post
http://tektoonics.com/test/parody/brooksbonked.htmlLast edited by Mountain Man; 08-12-2017, 06:59 AM.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by stfoskey15 View PostWhat about feudalism? Serfs weren't sinning by being serfs, but they were also oppressed. Assuming the serfs are Christian, how would you suggest they respond in such a situation? Let's pretend they've also voiced their complaints with the nobles, but the nobles ignored them.
In other words, deal with the situation with patience and humility. Jesus says much the same thing:
Perhaps most directly relevant to your OP, Paul also says the same sort of thing:
Or what about a communist society where people are assigned jobs that aren't immoral, but that they don't have a choice in? Also, in this hypothetical situation, the communists are tolerant of religion.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Luther is not exactly a good example of an unbiased interpretation of the passage, given that he was looking for an excuse to not obey papal authority. Your confusion also appears to be transparently deliberate. Your insistence that this must be interpreted strictly literally with no exceptions is the worst sort of fundamentalism. What part of "obey the authorities unless doing so causes you to disobey God" is so difficult to understand?Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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If the command were to be literal for all people, why does Paul himself continually disobey it by continuing to preach the Gospel?"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostLuther is not exactly a good example of an unbiased interpretation of the passage, given that he was looking for an excuse to not obey papal authority. Your confusion also appears to be transparently deliberate. Your insistence that this must be interpreted strictly literally with no exceptions is the worst sort of fundamentalism. What part of "obey the authorities unless doing so causes you to disobey God" is so difficult to understand?
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostA JP Holding disciple devoted clinging to him to the bitter end.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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