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Thread: Split from Universal Salvation

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    tWebber rossum's Avatar
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    Split from Universal Salvation

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    The fact remains, while God did save the righteous people out of Sodom he destroyed the wicked people. Same with the flood. He saved only 8 righteous people and destroyed everyone else. God destroys evil.
    All those unborn babies whose mothers drowned in the flood were "evil"? Every single one of them in the whole world (or at least the part of the world that was flooded). It is possible that all the mothers were evil, but their unborn children?

    rossum

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    Thanks Old Man... Bill the Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rossum View Post
    All those unborn babies whose mothers drowned in the flood were "evil"? Every single one of them in the whole world (or at least the part of the world that was flooded). It is possible that all the mothers were evil, but their unborn children?

    rossum
    As I said above...

    As the ruler of the universe God actually kills everyone. All people are mortal, some of them die young, and God is responsible for this state of affairs. Sometimes he does it miraculously in order to make a special point, but more often it he causes it to happen naturally. Before I ask whether I can trust a God who killed the Sodomites, I first need to ask whether I can trust a God who will kill ME.


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common --- Stephen R. Donaldson ---

  3. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.
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    tWebber rossum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    As the ruler of the universe God actually kills everyone. All people are mortal, some of them die young, and God is responsible for this state of affairs.
    Sparko's claim (post #94) was that the Flood only killed evil people. It was that claim I was disputing. Your point is valid, but it says nothing about good or evil; death is universal in humans.

    rossum

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    Thanks Old Man... Bill the Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rossum View Post
    Sparko's claim (post #94) was that the Flood only killed evil people. It was that claim I was disputing. Your point is valid, but it says nothing about good or evil; death is universal in humans.

    rossum
    Well, there is the matter of God's foreknowledge. Perhaps God saw in the future that all of those unborn and innocent were going to do wicked in the future.


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common --- Stephen R. Donaldson ---

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    tWebber rossum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    Well, there is the matter of God's foreknowledge. Perhaps God saw in the future that all of those unborn and innocent were going to do wicked in the future.
    If God had foreknowledge then He knew that they would die during the flood and would not have the chance to do anything, evil or good. Was he punishing them for something that they never even thought of doing? Isn't God meant to be just and merciful? Colour me unconvinced.

    rossum

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rossum View Post
    Sparko's claim (post #94) was that the Flood only killed evil people. It was that claim I was disputing. Your point is valid, but it says nothing about good or evil; death is universal in humans.

    rossum
    actually that is not what I said exactly, but regardless this hardly helps Anomaly's point. Basically you are saying that God destroys the innocent along with the wicked. Kinda the opposite of what Anomaly is arguing. If he was correct then all of the babies would have somehow been separated out of Sodom and saved from the destruction. That didn't happen.

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    Thanks Old Man... Bill the Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rossum View Post
    If God had foreknowledge then He knew that they would die during the flood and would not have the chance to do anything, evil or good. Was he punishing them for something that they never even thought of doing? Isn't God meant to be just and merciful? Colour me unconvinced.

    rossum
    Again, God kills everyone. He gave us life, and therefore, as the owner, can take it back whenever He sees fit, however He sees fit. Do you think drowning is a worse way to take an innocent life than allowing His innocent Son to suffer the horrors He did at the hands of the Romans for hours?


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common --- Stephen R. Donaldson ---

  9. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.
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    tWebber rossum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    Again, God kills everyone. He gave us life, and therefore, as the owner, can take it back whenever He sees fit, however He sees fit. Do you think drowning is a worse way to take an innocent life than allowing His innocent Son to suffer the horrors He did at the hands of the Romans for hours?
    Again irrelevant to the question of justice and mercy. Or is morality just "might makes right" writ large because God wields the biggest stick?

    I am Buddhist, so I do not share your assumptions about God. Buddhism's answer to the Euthyphro dilemma is that God does not have a choice, things are good independent of God.

    rossum

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    Thanks Old Man... Bill the Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rossum View Post
    Again irrelevant to the question of justice and mercy. Or is morality just "might makes right" writ large because God wields the biggest stick?

    I am Buddhist, so I do not share your assumptions about God. Buddhism's answer to the Euthyphro dilemma is that God does not have a choice, things are good independent of God.

    rossum
    Well, without some common concept of God, it becomes impossible to dialogue about His attributes. That you fail to see that God is the owner of life, and He is at His own discretion on when and how He takes it back isn't my problem. And since this is a discussion about universal salvation in Genesis 18 from a Christian perspective, your definition of God in Buddhism is off topic. You are welcome to start a new thread if you'd like.


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common --- Stephen R. Donaldson ---

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    tWebber rossum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    Well, without some common concept of God, it becomes impossible to dialogue about His attributes.
    So, all inter-religious dialogue about God is impossible? I disagree. Christians, Jews and Muslims can discuss the status of Jesus, and they have very different ideas of Jesus' attributes.

    That you fail to see that God is the owner of life, and He is at His own discretion on when and how He takes it back isn't my problem.
    It is your problem if you wish to convert me from Buddhism to Christianity.

    And since this is a discussion about universal salvation in Genesis 18 from a Christian perspective, your definition of God in Buddhism is off topic. You are welcome to start a new thread if you'd like.
    Buddhism is a Universalist religion; all living beings attain nirvana eventually. Even Mara, the rough equivalent of Lucifer, will attain nirvana some time in the future. Universalism has been a point of discussion within Buddhism before. The non-universalist position was rejected.

    rossum

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