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Split from Universal Salvation

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  • Split from Universal Salvation

    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    The fact remains, while God did save the righteous people out of Sodom he destroyed the wicked people. Same with the flood. He saved only 8 righteous people and destroyed everyone else. God destroys evil.
    All those unborn babies whose mothers drowned in the flood were "evil"? Every single one of them in the whole world (or at least the part of the world that was flooded). It is possible that all the mothers were evil, but their unborn children?

    rossum

  • #2
    Originally posted by rossum View Post
    All those unborn babies whose mothers drowned in the flood were "evil"? Every single one of them in the whole world (or at least the part of the world that was flooded). It is possible that all the mothers were evil, but their unborn children?

    rossum
    As I said above...

    As the ruler of the universe God actually kills everyone. All people are mortal, some of them die young, and God is responsible for this state of affairs. Sometimes he does it miraculously in order to make a special point, but more often it he causes it to happen naturally. Before I ask whether I can trust a God who killed the Sodomites, I first need to ask whether I can trust a God who will kill ME.
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    - Stephen R. Donaldson

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
      As the ruler of the universe God actually kills everyone. All people are mortal, some of them die young, and God is responsible for this state of affairs.
      Sparko's claim (post #94) was that the Flood only killed evil people. It was that claim I was disputing. Your point is valid, but it says nothing about good or evil; death is universal in humans.

      rossum

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by rossum View Post
        Sparko's claim (post #94) was that the Flood only killed evil people. It was that claim I was disputing. Your point is valid, but it says nothing about good or evil; death is universal in humans.

        rossum
        Well, there is the matter of God's foreknowledge. Perhaps God saw in the future that all of those unborn and innocent were going to do wicked in the future.
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        - Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
          Well, there is the matter of God's foreknowledge. Perhaps God saw in the future that all of those unborn and innocent were going to do wicked in the future.
          If God had foreknowledge then He knew that they would die during the flood and would not have the chance to do anything, evil or good. Was he punishing them for something that they never even thought of doing? Isn't God meant to be just and merciful? Colour me unconvinced.

          rossum

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by rossum View Post
            Sparko's claim (post #94) was that the Flood only killed evil people. It was that claim I was disputing. Your point is valid, but it says nothing about good or evil; death is universal in humans.

            rossum
            actually that is not what I said exactly, but regardless this hardly helps Anomaly's point. Basically you are saying that God destroys the innocent along with the wicked. Kinda the opposite of what Anomaly is arguing. If he was correct then all of the babies would have somehow been separated out of Sodom and saved from the destruction. That didn't happen.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by rossum View Post
              If God had foreknowledge then He knew that they would die during the flood and would not have the chance to do anything, evil or good. Was he punishing them for something that they never even thought of doing? Isn't God meant to be just and merciful? Colour me unconvinced.

              rossum
              Again, God kills everyone. He gave us life, and therefore, as the owner, can take it back whenever He sees fit, however He sees fit. Do you think drowning is a worse way to take an innocent life than allowing His innocent Son to suffer the horrors He did at the hands of the Romans for hours?
              That's what
              - She

              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
              - Stephen R. Donaldson

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                Again, God kills everyone. He gave us life, and therefore, as the owner, can take it back whenever He sees fit, however He sees fit. Do you think drowning is a worse way to take an innocent life than allowing His innocent Son to suffer the horrors He did at the hands of the Romans for hours?
                Again irrelevant to the question of justice and mercy. Or is morality just "might makes right" writ large because God wields the biggest stick?

                I am Buddhist, so I do not share your assumptions about God. Buddhism's answer to the Euthyphro dilemma is that God does not have a choice, things are good independent of God.

                rossum

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by rossum View Post
                  Again irrelevant to the question of justice and mercy. Or is morality just "might makes right" writ large because God wields the biggest stick?

                  I am Buddhist, so I do not share your assumptions about God. Buddhism's answer to the Euthyphro dilemma is that God does not have a choice, things are good independent of God.

                  rossum
                  Well, without some common concept of God, it becomes impossible to dialogue about His attributes. That you fail to see that God is the owner of life, and He is at His own discretion on when and how He takes it back isn't my problem. And since this is a discussion about universal salvation in Genesis 18 from a Christian perspective, your definition of God in Buddhism is off topic. You are welcome to start a new thread if you'd like.
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  - Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                    Well, without some common concept of God, it becomes impossible to dialogue about His attributes.
                    So, all inter-religious dialogue about God is impossible? I disagree. Christians, Jews and Muslims can discuss the status of Jesus, and they have very different ideas of Jesus' attributes.

                    That you fail to see that God is the owner of life, and He is at His own discretion on when and how He takes it back isn't my problem.
                    It is your problem if you wish to convert me from Buddhism to Christianity.

                    And since this is a discussion about universal salvation in Genesis 18 from a Christian perspective, your definition of God in Buddhism is off topic. You are welcome to start a new thread if you'd like.
                    Buddhism is a Universalist religion; all living beings attain nirvana eventually. Even Mara, the rough equivalent of Lucifer, will attain nirvana some time in the future. Universalism has been a point of discussion within Buddhism before. The non-universalist position was rejected.

                    rossum

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by rossum View Post
                      So, all inter-religious dialogue about God is impossible? I disagree. Christians, Jews and Muslims can discuss the status of Jesus, and they have very different ideas of Jesus' attributes.
                      Discuss? Perhaps, but come to a consensus? No.



                      It is your problem if you wish to convert me from Buddhism to Christianity.
                      I don't convert anyone. The Holy Spirit does that. My job is to tell you why I have the hope inside me. That's it.


                      Buddhism is a Universalist religion; all living beings attain nirvana eventually. Even Mara, the rough equivalent of Lucifer, will attain nirvana some time in the future. Universalism has been a point of discussion within Buddhism before. The non-universalist position was rejected.

                      rossum
                      You missed the part where I said from a Christian perspective. This thread is not for discussing Buddhism. This area of the forum may be, but Buddhism and nirvana are not the topic of this thread. Please start your own if you want to discuss them, or I will have the mods move your posts.
                      That's what
                      - She

                      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                      - Stephen R. Donaldson

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by rossum View Post
                        All those unborn babies whose mothers drowned in the flood were "evil"? Every single one of them in the whole world (or at least the part of the world that was flooded). It is possible that all the mothers were evil, but their unborn children?

                        rossum

                        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        The only thing universal about salvation is that Christ died to redeem all (1 John 2:2; Titus 2:11). So that everyone is placed in the book of life. And only those whose names are not removed (Revelation 3:5; 1 John 5:4, 5) will not perish (Revelation 20:15).
                        The children, there names would not have been removed from the book of life (everyone's name being in the book by reason the blood of Christ who died for all, 1 John 2:2). The children not being old enough to choose. (see Mark 10:14-15.)
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          The children, their names would not have been removed from the book of life (everyone's name being in the book by reason of the blood of Christ who died for all, 1 John 2:2). The children not being old enough to choose. (see Mark 10:14-15.)
                          Some corrections that were missed.
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment

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