Even Atheists Think That Atheists Are More Immoral.

[stfoskey15]

That is why there is a hell... And how is God authoritarian? Is He forcing you to love Him? To follow Him?

Hell is why God is authoritarian. It's an extremely draconian punishment. Infinite pain for a finite crime is stupid and evil.

But if you aren't, you still exist and die. There is no value in any of it. If someone grew up on a deserted island and never had any human contact, they'd matter just as little as any of us in a godless universe.

Happiness is irrelevant. It's just an emotion. Again, when you are long dead, no one will care if you were happy or not.

That's the point. There is no ultimate point in a godless universe. Points are actually pointless. Hence nihilism is the natural end result of atheism.

Then you must live on an island by yourself.

Sure you can. You can assign meaning to anything. But will it ACTUALLY mean anything? Not in a godless universe.

A noble endeavor. Good luck to you.

Again, I go to my cemetery response. Go to an old cemetery and pick a random grave. Does it matter if that person experienced pleasure? Pain? No it doesn't.

I don't understand why someone else must assign something relevance. Yeah our lives may not matter much in the long run, but they matter to us while we're alive and they matter to those around us. Also, I'm agnostic on the issue of life after death. I see no reason to believe in it, but I really want there to be some sort of universalist paradise we go to when we die.

[Charles]

Hell is why God is authoritarian. It's an extremely draconian punishment. Infinite pain for a finite crime is stupid and evil.

Yes, and one wonders how anyone can worship such a God. It surely does question their moral integrity.

[seer]

Hell is why God is authoritarian. It's an extremely draconian punishment. Infinite pain for a finite crime is stupid and evil.

It is still your choice, and your crime would not be finite, it will be infinite for what makes you think that you stop sinning in hell - your hatred for God continues as long as you do.

[Charles]

It is still your choice, and your crime would not be finite, it will be infinite for what makes you think that you stop sinning in hell - your hatred for God continues as long as you do.

Perhaps you would want to reconsider this one, seer. You start out by saying "It is still your choice" but everything else you say seem to imply that it is not a choice at all. "[...] it will be infinite for what makes you think that you stop sinning in hell - your hatred for God continues as long as you do." I don't see much choice here. Do you? Do you mean to imply a person in hell could change his mind? If not then where is the choice?

[seer]

Perhaps you would want to reconsider this one, seer. You start out by saying "It is still your choice" but everything else you say seem to imply that it is not a choice at all. "[...] it will be infinite for what makes you think that you stop sinning in hell - your hatred for God continues as long as you do." I don't see much choice here. Do you? Do you mean to imply a person in hell could change his mind? If not then where is the choice?

I doubt that a man in hell could change his mind, that does not mean that he stops sinning. Your choice is now Charles, but like you said: "one wonders how anyone can worship such a God..."

[Charles]

I doubt that a man in hell could change his mind, that does not mean that he stops sinning. Your choice is now Charles, but like you said: "one wonders how anyone can worship such a God..."

So if I got you right it is still eternal punishment with no option to change it at a later stage? Infinite pain for a finite crime? Or Infinite pain for a finite crime follow by infinite "crime" that you cannot control?

I guess if there is to be a judgment at some point, God will be quite angry at those who came up with the idea that he would torment any person, including babies, mentally disabled persons, those killed as fetuses, honest people who held other views, victims of torture and so on forever. So I feel the most safe is to go for ideas that can be justified and not go for something unjustifiable.

[Sparko]

So if I got you right it is still eternal punishment with no option to change it at a later stage? Infinite pain for a finite crime? Or Infinite pain for a finite crime follow by infinite "crime" that you cannot control?

I guess if there is to be a judgment at some point, God will be quite angry at those who came up with the idea that he would torment any person, including babies, mentally disabled persons, those killed as fetuses, honest people who held other views, victims of torture and so on forever. So I feel the most safe is to go for ideas that can be justified and not go for something unjustifiable.

No. You have a finite time to make an infinite choice. Choose well.

[seer]

So if I got you right it is still eternal punishment with no option to change it at a later stage? Infinite pain for a finite crime? Or Infinite pain for a finite crime follow by infinite "crime" that you cannot control?

I guess if there is to be a judgment at some point, God will be quite angry at those who came up with the idea that he would torment any person, including babies, mentally disabled persons, those killed as fetuses, honest people who held other views, victims of torture and so on forever. So I feel the most safe is to go for ideas that can be justified and not go for something unjustifiable.

The reason you bring up babies or the mentally ill Charles is so you can justify your own rebellion, your attempt to gain the moral high ground is as transparent as it meaningless.

[Charles]

The reason you bring up babies or the mentally ill Charles is so you can justify your own rebellion, your attempt to gain the moral high ground is as transparent as it meaningless.

So caring about babies and finding etarnal punishment of them morally wrong is meaningless. Who is the true nihilist, seer?

[Sparko]

So caring about babies and finding etarnal punishment of them morally wrong is meaningless. Who is the true nihilist, seer?

Christians don't believe that infants, children, the mentally handicapped or anyone who doesn't understand right from wrong will be in hell Charles.

[seer]

So caring about babies and finding etarnal punishment of them morally wrong is meaningless. Who is the true nihilist, seer?

You have no idea what you are talking about Charles, scripture never even suggests that babies would go to hell. As Christ said, suffer the little children to come to me for such is the Kingdom of Heaven. But these are simply deflections on your part, like I said, to justify your own sin and rebellion.

[EvoUK]

Why is this thread in civics again..?

[Charles]

You have no idea what you are talking about Charles, scripture never even suggests that babies would go to hell. As Christ said, suffer the little children to come to me for such is the Kingdom of Heaven. But these are simply deflections on your part, like I said, to justify your own sin and rebellion.

So babies wont go to hell? Nor will mentally disabled people, those who never had the chance to hear about Christ and so on? Sound good. But Christians have repeatedly stated otherwise. Not that it proves them right.

[seer]

So babies wont go to hell? Nor will mentally disabled people, those who never had the chance to hear about Christ and so on? Sound good. But Christians have repeatedly stated otherwise. Not that it proves them right.

I said nothing about those who never heard of Christ. But the fact is - you have heard the Gospel, so you are without excuse.

[Charles]

I said nothing about those who never heard of Christ. But the fact is - you have heard the Gospel, so you are without excuse.

I would say you are without excuse if you go for the idea that those who never heard of Christ would be punished eternally and then go on to praise the God behind that idea.