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Thread: Even Atheists Think That Atheists Are More Immoral.

  1. #111
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Charles, what you consider absurd, disgusting or sick has no relevance since it is based on severely limited understanding and knowledge. God sees the big picture, and He will be what He always is - just and good. And since He is all knowing He knows who would repent and who wouldn't. Let me put it this way - everybody who sincerely wants God will find Him.
    What you appeal to is the idea that I should give up any idea of justice when confronted with the idea of hell and accept an idea that some God who allows for more suffering than this world has ever seen (which is far more than enough to say the least) is just and good without further explanation. My position remains: If there is a good God this is the last thing he would want us to do, and hell is the last idea he would want us to ascribe to him.

    Seer, you have been given the ability to reflect and to consider. I think you are the one who is without excuse if you go for these ideas.
    Last edited by Charles; 08-12-2017 at 09:32 AM.

  2. Amen Tassman amen'd this post.
  3. #112
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles View Post
    What you appeal to is the idea that I should give up any idea of justice when confronted with the idea of hell and accept an idea that some God who allows for more suffering than this world has ever seen (which is far more than enough to say the least) is just and good without further explanation. My position remains: If there is a good God this is the last thing he would want us to do, and hell is the last idea he would want us to ascribe to him.
    No Charles, what I'm saying is that your idea of justice is relative to the culture you were raised in, others have no problem seeing hell as just. And like I said we have a limited understanding, we do not have all the facts. So forgive me if I don't take your opinion as gospel.

    Seer, you have been given the ability to reflect and to consider. I think you are the one who is without excuse if you go for these ideas.
    Like we discussed in the past Charles there are different views of hell, that go back to the early Church. Even your buddy Kant believed that punishment after death was necessary to make sense of morality. But whatever that punishment turns out to be, whether eternal or temporal, I don't want to experience it.
    "We can understand hell in its aspect of privation. All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it, or else, that it was within your reach and you have lost it forever.” C.S. Lewis

  4. #113
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post


    Like we discussed in the past Charles there are different views of hell, that go back to the early Church. Even your buddy Kant believed that punishment after death was necessary to make sense of morality. But whatever that punishment turns out to be, whether eternal or temporal, I don't want to experience it.
    Reward or punishment after death is not necessary to make sense of morality. The Pavlovian ‘carrot & stick’ approach might work well in training dogs, but for humans morality is its own reward. To say otherwise is to devalue morality.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  5. #114
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    Reward or punishment after death is not necessary to make sense of morality. The Pavlovian ‘carrot & stick’ approach might work well in training dogs, but for humans morality is its own reward. To say otherwise is to devalue morality.
    So a Stalin murders millions and dies a good old age, and that is just, that makes sense of morality?
    "We can understand hell in its aspect of privation. All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it, or else, that it was within your reach and you have lost it forever.” C.S. Lewis

  6. #115
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    So a Stalin murders millions and dies a good old age, and that is just, that makes sense of morality?
    Rewards and punishments for behaviour are productive when are socialising our children. But, threatening postmortem punishment to an atheist like Stalin is not going to stop his atrocities, just as an atheist who is good and kind is not going to be affected by the promise of a postmortem pie-in-the-sky reward. Virtue is its own reward.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  7. Amen JimL amen'd this post.
  8. #116
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    Rewards and punishments for behaviour are productive when are socialising our children. But, threatening postmortem punishment to an atheist like Stalin is not going to stop his atrocities, just as an atheist who is good and kind is not going to be affected by the promise of a postmortem pie-in-the-sky reward. Virtue is its own reward.
    Right so your universe is basically unjust, if you can get away with it in this life you win! That makes a mockery of both justice and morality.
    "We can understand hell in its aspect of privation. All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it, or else, that it was within your reach and you have lost it forever.” C.S. Lewis

  9. #117
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Right so your universe is basically unjust, if you can get away with it in this life you win! That makes a mockery of both justice and morality.
    So tell me seer, is the only reason for your good moral behavior based upon your hoped for reward in the after life?

  10. #118
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    So tell me seer, is the only reason for your good moral behavior based upon your hoped for reward in the after life?
    No Jim, but justice is either universal or it is not, if it is not it makes a mockery of morality.
    "We can understand hell in its aspect of privation. All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it, or else, that it was within your reach and you have lost it forever.” C.S. Lewis

  11. #119
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    So a Stalin murders millions and dies a good old age, and that is just, that makes sense of morality?
    So a non Christian dies and must suffer more than Stalins victims did all together? And once that is done it starts over and over and over and over and over and over and over again and agian and again. Forever. Does that make sense of morality? I see why you need to point to the fact that we have a limited understanding of it. It certainly needs to be limited in order to allow for this.

  12. Amen Tassman, stfoskey15 amen'd this post.
  13. #120
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles View Post
    So a non Christian dies and must suffer more than Stalins victims did all together?
    No Charles each man will suffer to the exact portion of their sin. Then death. Remember I am an Annihilationist. And yes, God will be perfectly just. Even if His sense of justice does not conform to yours.

    And once that is done it starts over and over and over and over and over and over and over again and agian and again. Forever. Does that make sense of morality? I see why you need to point to the fact that we have a limited understanding of it. It certainly needs to be limited in order to allow for this.
    Even if hell is eternal, I suspect that there would be degrees of suffering. Since we are judged according to our works (whether saved or unsaved) I don't think a Joe Six Pack would share the same degree of punishment as a Hitler. In either case, like I said, whether eternal or temporal, I don't want to experience it.
    "We can understand hell in its aspect of privation. All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it, or else, that it was within your reach and you have lost it forever.” C.S. Lewis

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