Even Atheists Think That Atheists Are More Immoral.

[seer]

seer knew that the christian view was not my view, and that I was merely pointing out the ridiculousness, in my opinion, of the christian view regarding sin. As my reply to seer's point, 'about sin being a disease and Jesus being the cure made clear,' his teaching was pointless to me, a none believer.

No Jim, you thought that is was horrible or unfair or whatever that what Adam did had some effect on us to today. My point was that it really isn't since we can repent and reverse that condition, and the real problem/horror is not taking advantage of the opportunity - or taking the cure. According to my beliefs - which you were attacking.

[Adrift]

seer knew that the christian view was not my view, and that I was merely pointing out the ridiculousness, in my opinion, of the christian view regarding sin.

Of course. Absolutely no one here is confused about that.

As my reply to seer's point, 'about sin being a disease and Jesus being the cure made clear,' his teaching was pointless to me, a none believer.

His argument was assuming the Christian perspective because you sardonically asked about the Christian perspective assuming (for your argument's sake) that Adam and Eve were real. I really don't understand why you guys are making this so much more complicated than it really is. You're acting as though you've never interacted with anyone in this way before. Seeing as I don't think you're an absolute idiot, the only reason I can think of that you're making a fuss over it is that you just enjoy being contrary.

And even if seer wasn't speaking on the Christian perspective because you were hypothetically taking the Christian perspective first, what's wrong with a Christian telling an atheist that it's his responsibility to find Jesus (the cure)? If, using Roy's example, a person told me that it's my responsibility to not get eaten by a giant mutant star-goat, I might not agree with that person, but I would not find it irrelevant to the conversation if I were discussing mutant star-goats to begin with. Obviously that person believes that mutant star-goats can eat people, and he sincerely believes I can be eaten by them, even if I do not accept his belief. Perhaps his warning will get me thinking, and perhaps one day I too will be a believer in the mutant star-goat thanks to his warning.

[JimL]

No Jim, you thought that is was horrible or unfair or whatever that what Adam did had some effect on us to today. My point was that it really isn't since we can repent and reverse that condition, and the real problem horror is not taking advantage of the opportunity - or taking the cure. According to my beliefs - which you were attacking.

No, I didn't say that it was horrible or unfair, I said that it was a ridiculous notion, which it is. Sin is not a disease okay, it's a not contagious entity. What ever happened to your notion of free will? Stop blaming Adam.

[seer]

No, I didn't say that it was horrible or unfair, I said that it was a ridiculous notion, which it is. Sin is not a disease okay, it's a not contagious entity. What ever happened to your notion of free will? Stop blaming Adam.

Jim, whether ridiculous or unfair the point remains. And I never claimed that free will was absolute, after all you can freely repent and receive Christ this very night! And I take full responsibility for my own sin. I don't blame Adam.

[Sparko]

Typically vague and evasive.

well maybe you and Charles should read the bible and see what it actually says. It's in the first few chapters.

[stfoskey15]

I think another point that could be added to this is that thinking of sin as "sometimes doing bad things within one's short lifetime" is wrongheaded. Yes stealing that pack of gum when you were five was bad, but that's not a complete understanding of what sin is. Sin is a spiritual condition of disobedience and rebellion against God, our creator. Sometimes this exhibits itself in doing obvious visible wrongs like stealing, killing, and raping, but it also exhibits itself in our general mindset and attitude towards God, ourselves, and our fellow sinners who were likewise created in God's image. For those who reject Jesus, that spiritual condition hasn't been altered. Those who find themselves in hell don't stop sinning. So it isn't a case of infinite punishment for finite sin, it's a case of infinite punishment for infinite sin. As C.S. Lewis popularly put it,

"I willingly believe that the damned are, in one sense, successful, rebels to the end; that the doors of hell are locked on the inside. I do not mean that the ghosts may not wish to come out of hell, in the vague fashion wherein an envious man 'wishes' to be happy: but they certainly do not will even the first preliminary stages of that self-abandonment through which alone the soul can reach any good. They enjoy forever the horrible freedom they have demanded, and are therefore self-enslaved: just as the blessed, forever submitting to obedience, become through all eternity more and more free."

What if you have an attitude of goodwill and benevolence toward others without any divine intervention?

Teal's answer to the previous part of your question is pretty good, so I won't add anything there. But no, if you've read the Bible you would know that it doesn't disagree with me. See 2 Corinthians 5 which tells the reader that anyone who is in Christ is a new creation and the old has passed away. See Romans 6 that tells the reader that those who have been baptized into Christ have been baptized into his death, and that "just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life." See Ephesians 4 and Colossians 3 that tells the one who has made Christ Lord to put away the old man who is corrupted by its deceitful desires, to renew the spirits of our mind, and to put on the new man, created in God's image of righteousness and holiness.

You'll notice in the post you replied to that nowhere did I suggest that Christians no longer sin. What I was suggesting was that through Christ we are no longer slaves to sin. That new spiritual condition doesn't make us non-sinners, we still retain the learned habits of that old man nature, but it does open our eyes to our sin, puts into our heart a desire to sin less, and to strive for God's holiness. We will fail, but the mature Christian learns by that failure. We will not be perfect within this natural flesh, but we are being perfected day by day. We are in a process of sanctification that will be completed when we are clothed in glory at Christ's return.

Now, by the tone of your post, and from years of reading you, I realize that you didn't ask these questions expecting answers. You obviously have it all figured out. So, no doubt you'll just dismiss the above and find some other line of argument to grouch about. But, I honestly don't think anyone here is all that impressed by what you find the "stupidist [sic] thing" you've ever heard.

Can't one still work to be a better person without all the supernatural whatever?

[Adrift]

What if you have an attitude of goodwill and benevolence toward others without any divine intervention?

Jesus says that the Law and the Prophets hang on two commandments, "‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. The second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’" It's wonderful if people have an attitude of goodwill and benevolence towards others, but that's only half the equation.

Can't one still work to be a better person without all the supernatural whatever?

Certainly, but we're talking about the Christian conception of sin, right? Sin in Christianity is often defined as "missing the mark". If the mark is God's perfect moral standard, then no matter how hard someone attempts to work to be a better person, but devoid of "all the supernatural whatever", they'll be well off that mark.

[Charles]

well maybe you and Charles should read the bible and see what it actually says. It's in the first few chapters.

Yet another useless answer. I have read the Bible a lot more than once. But of course this is just another example of you going for everything else than the subject matter.

[Sparko]

Yet another useless answer. I have read the Bible a lot more than once. But of course this is just another example of you going for everything else than the subject matter.

I seriously doubt it. And if true, then that just reinforces my opinion that all you are doing is pretending to want answers, and pretending ignorance when you know perfectly well what the answer is.

[JimL]

Jesus says that the Law and the Prophets hang on two commandments, "‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. The second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’" It's wonderful if people have an attitude of goodwill and benevolence towards others, but that's only half the equation.



Certainly, but we're talking about the Christian conception of sin, right? Sin in Christianity is often defined as "missing the mark". If the mark is God's perfect moral standard, then no matter how hard someone attempts to work to be a better person, but devoid of "all the supernatural whatever", they'll be well off that mark.

Therefore one must be a christian and believe in the existence of Jesus as the son of god or they go to hell regardless of their moral character. Dumb belief!

[Adrift]

Therefore one must be a christian and believe in the existence of Jesus as the son of god or they go to hell regardless of their moral character. Dumb belief!

Well, yes, a Christian is defined as someone who accepts the existence of Jesus, and that he's the Son of God. But no, it probably wouldn't be proper to say that one goes to hell regardless of their moral character. Moral character, according to scripture, includes one's love and faithfulness to God. If you're referring to some sort of naturalist/materialist definition of moral character, where a works-based system will guarantee you entry into heaven and an exit from hell, there are plenty of religions that offer something like that. Christianity isn't one of those religions. Why a determined naturalist/materialist would be concerned about the afterlife at all is strange though. Also, again, millions and millions of people for millennia have accepted Christianity. While wide acceptance of course does not guarantee truth, you'll find that very few people will be impressed by what you consider a "dumb belief".

[Charles]

I seriously doubt it. And if true, then that just reinforces my opinion that all you are doing is pretending to want answers, and pretending ignorance when you know perfectly well what the answer is.

Another useless post in which you attack my person instead of giving an answer.

[Sparko]

Another useless post in which you attack my person instead of giving an answer.

another useless response in which you play the victim in a passive aggressive attempt to claim the high ground via virtue signalling.

[Charles]

another useless response in which you play the victim in a passive aggressive attempt to claim the high ground via virtue signalling.

Let me know when you have anything substantial to say. And feel free to answer the original question.

[Sparko]

Let me know when you have anything substantial to say. And feel free to answer the original question.

I already answered you. After which you pretended "not to get it" which started this line of rhetoric.

what a tool.