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Even Atheists Think That Atheists Are More Immoral.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Dimbulb View Post
    Basically, religious people popularize a false narrative that religious=moral and atheist=immoral and that narrative permeates the country and even to the point where it gets believed by some atheists. Only in countries where the rates of atheism are high does the obvious falsity of that narrative become apparent to everyone.
    That dagger can cut both ways, kiddo. It could simply be the case that in countries where atheists are prominent, the sense of morality has been warped to the point that the average citizen no longer recognizes the inherent depravity of atheists in general.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      Only in countries where the rates of atheism are high does the obvious falsity of that narrative become apparent to everyone.
      No, Even in places that are currently quite overtly secular, people still seem to intuitively hold on to the believe that religion is a moral safeguard.


      My theory is that you atheists know how dark your inclinations are so you don't trust other atheists since they have similar tendencies.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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      • #18
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        My theory is that you atheists know how dark your inclinations are so you don't trust other atheists since they have similar tendencies.
        Reminds me of the joke:

        "...and you will be tried by a jury of your peers."
        "My peers? No way! I don't want those crooks judging me!"
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          No, Even in places that are currently quite overtly secular, people still seem to intuitively hold on to the believe that religion is a moral safeguard.
          The study found that the effect was less in countries that were more secular. And in very secular countries like NZ and Finland, the effect was not statistically significant.

          You quoted the key observation by the study's author but didn't underline it:
          "I suspect that this stems from the prevalence of deeply entrenched pro-religious norms."


          Historically religion has had good PR in the Western world and has equated itself with morality in the minds of the public. Various recent scandals have undermined that in the minds of the younger generations - Catholic priest pedophilia, opposition to human rights for LGBT people etc.

          My theory is that you atheists know how dark your inclinations are so you don't trust other atheists since they have similar tendencies.
          I think you are completely wrong, as per usual. Speaking as an atheist I would say I don't have any "dark... inclinations" (okay, occasionally I have an inclination to eating a chocolate bar despite knowing it's bad for me) and am actually horrified regularly by various Christians online (especially Calvinists) who describe in detail how horrible their desires and sins are. Perhaps is that is why I am a liberal - because I am a nice and benevolent person I have a tendency to assume the best of human nature and the best of other people, and perhaps that is why you guys are conservatives because you aren't particularly nice or good yourselves so feel the need for a divine headmaster to oversee your behavior to keep you on the straight-and-narrow and you tend to assume other people are as bad as you are and need the same.
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • #20
            I wonder what would happen if they did the same scenario with men vs. women or black people vs. white people. Would people be more inclined to believe men and blacks are the ones who commit crimes? What about Christians vs. Muslims vs. Jews vs. Hindus vs. Buddhists?

            Here's a link to the study: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-017-0151
            Find my speling strange? I'm trying this out: Simplified Speling. Feel free to join me.

            "Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do."-Jeremy Bentham

            "We question all our beliefs, except for the ones that we really believe in, and those we never think to question."-Orson Scott Card

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by stfoskey15 View Post
              I wonder what would happen if they did the same scenario with men vs. women or black people vs. white people. Would people be more inclined to believe men and blacks are the ones who commit crimes? What about Christians vs. Muslims vs. Jews vs. Hindus vs. Buddhists?
              The data on the religions of current prisoners isn't that great, but there is some federal data on the subject and FiveThirtyEight discusses it. Their most useful graph is this one:

              Bars that point left on that graph mean the group is underrepresented in the prison population (e.g. there aren't as many atheists in prisons as one might expect given how many atheists there are in the US), while bars that point right mean the group is overrepresented in the prison population (e.g. Native Americans are disproportionately filling the prisons)

              That can somewhat answer your question about "Christians vs. Muslims vs. Jews vs. Hindus vs. Buddhists?" in terms of who is actually in federal prisons, but it obviously can't answer questions about popular beliefs on the subject. e.g. the OP in this thread revealed that Americans have a widespread belief that atheists are less moral, but such a belief does not appear to be fact-based given the actual federal prison data. (Or whatever 'immoralities' atheists tend to favor, such as my chocolate gluttony, it's not landing them in federal prisons)
              Last edited by Starlight; 08-07-2017, 10:00 PM.
              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                The data on the religions of current prisoners isn't that great, but there is some federal data on the subject and FiveThirtyEight discusses it. Their most useful graph is this one:

                Bars that point left on that graph mean the group is underrepresented in the prison population (e.g. there aren't as many atheists in prisons as one might expect given how many atheists there are in the US), while bars that point right mean the group is overrepresented in the prison population (e.g. Native Americans are disproportionately filling the prisons)

                That can somewhat answer your question about "Christians vs. Muslims vs. Jews vs. Hindus vs. Buddhists?" in terms of who is actually in federal prisons, but it obviously can't answer questions about popular beliefs on the subject. e.g. the OP in this thread revealed that Americans have a widespread belief that atheists are less moral, but such a belief does not appear to be fact-based given the actual federal prison data. (Or whatever 'immoralities' atheists tend to favor, such as my chocolate gluttony, it's not landing them in federal prisons)
                the data is worthless because you get perks for belonging to a religion, so only fundy atheists would actually claim to be atheist. one agnostic guy I know who went to prison "changed his religion" several times because he wanted to taste all the different holiday meals.
                "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                  the data is worthless because you get perks for belonging to a religion, so only fundy atheists would actually claim to be atheist. one agnostic guy I know who went to prison "changed his religion" several times because he wanted to taste all the different holiday meals.
                  Are there are lot of Native American holiday meals and no Pentecostal ones?
                  "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                  "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                  "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    The upshot is that we generally see religious people as more moral.
                    Of course you do. This is why you support such a morally upright person like Donald J Trump, a man who conforms to ethical principles and who cannot tell a lie.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      What are you talking about:
                      I suspect he's talking about you reversing the results of the study in order to produce an unjustified conclusion.

                      You've assumed that if a perpetrator is more likely to be an atheist, then that means an atheist is more likely to be a perpetrator. This is not necessarily true.

                      Given a population of 100 people, of which 62 are atheists (including 3 perpetrators) and 38 are theists (including 2 perpetrators), the probability that a random perpetrator is an atheist is 66%, but the probability that a random atheist is a perpetrator (4.8%) is less that the probability that a random theist is a perpetrator (5.2%).

                      Atheists can be more moral than theists even if immoral people are more likely to be atheists.
                      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        Says the doctor to the man with the flu, "You're perfectly healthy. It's everyone else who is sick!"
                        “Nature cannot be fooled.” This means that nature, which includes you and your thoughts, is calculating your fate moment by moment. It generally rewards clever ideas and punishes bad ones. Consequently, societies tend to move towards sound ideas while the unsound ideas generate resentment at their exclusion. Intolerance and anger like this or simply lack of generosity towards your fellow man is a sign that your ideas are unsound.

                        Unlike the Christian, the atheist functions in society regardless of the watchful eye of a celestial policeman. He is self-reliant and self-motivating. The Christian and others seem to require a degree of supervision that the atheist does not. Most of the time they are motivated by the desire to supervise others – they admire conformity to authoritarian rule.

                        Atheism is the superior state to which nature is driving us all. It is a fact becoming ever more apparent that our fate as a species depends ultimately on our ability to simulate the natural ongoing calculation of our future and in this endeavor, wishful, spooky and authoritarian thinking has no place. Atheists are helping to re-engineer your mind.
                        “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                        “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                        “not all there” - you know who you are

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                          Unlike the Christian, the atheist functions in society regardless of the watchful eye of a celestial policeman. He is self-reliant and self-motivating.
                          You mean like the Maoist? The Stalinist? The followers of Pol Pot, Castro?
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            You mean like the Maoist? The Stalinist? The followers of Pol Pot, Castro?
                            No. You keep making the same error time and time again.

                            https://michaelsherlockauthor.wordpr...pher-hitchens/

                            “[The atheist atrocities fallacy is a multifaceted and multidimensional monster, comprised of a cocktail of illogically contrived arguments. It is, at its core, a tu quoque fallacy, employed to deflect justified charges of religious violence, by erroneously charging atheism with similar, if not worse, conduct. But it is much more than this, for within its tangled and mangled edifice can be found the false analogy fallacy, the poisoning of the well fallacy, the false cause fallacy, and even an implied slippery slope fallacy.]”
                            “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                            “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                            “not all there” - you know who you are

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                              “Nature cannot be fooled.” This means that nature, which includes you and your thoughts, is calculating your fate moment by moment. It generally rewards clever ideas and punishes bad ones. Consequently, societies tend to move towards sound ideas while the unsound ideas generate resentment at their exclusion. Intolerance and anger like this or simply lack of generosity towards your fellow man is a sign that your ideas are unsound.
                              You speak as if nature is thinking and in control... kind of like a god...


                              Unlike the Christian, the atheist functions in society regardless of the watchful eye of a celestial policeman.
                              They are their own "celestial policeman", and have no reason to be benevolent or altruistic outside of their personal preference.

                              He is self-reliant and self-motivating.
                              Or he is selfish and lazy. And neither description matters a hill of beans in the end. When you are dead, there will be no reward for being self-reliant and no punishment for being greedy and selfish. So, there is no reason to choose to be self-reliant or self-motivating when the end result is the same.

                              The Christian and others seem to require a degree of supervision that the atheist does not.
                              The atheist relies on supervising his own self with arbitrary and, ultimately, pointless goals and motivations.

                              Most of the time they are motivated by the desire to supervise others – they admire conformity to authoritarian rule.
                              As a model of how God rules us.

                              Atheism is the superior state to which nature is driving us all.
                              No it isn't. It ultimately leads to nihilism and inconsequence. Any self-motivation or self-direction is an arbitrary distraction to the pointless nature of existence. There simply is no reason for any of it. As a result, any and all responses are equally valid, and equally pointless.

                              It is a fact becoming ever more apparent that our fate as a species depends ultimately on our ability to simulate the natural ongoing calculation of our future and in this endeavor, wishful, spooky and authoritarian thinking has no place. Atheists are helping to re-engineer your mind.
                              And when we are dead, it won't matter in the least bit if you succeeded or failed.
                              That's what
                              - She

                              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                              - Stephen R. Donaldson

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by brain does go past the firstfloor View Post
                                Unlike the Christian, the atheist functions in society regardless of the watchful eye of a celestial policeman. He is self-reliant and self-motivating. The Christian and others seem to require a degree of supervision that the atheist does not.
                                There are a whole lot of begged questions and unproven assumptions here. The Christian would say that the only reason the atheist has any concept of morality at all is because the atheist lives in a universe where his Creator has endowed him with a conscience. Whether or not the atheist chooses to recognize the existence of his Creator is irrelevant in the same way that a man who denies the law of gravity is nevertheless bound by it. In other words, saying that "Atheism just works" isn't a valid argument.
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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