Question for Christians about Free Will and the Afterlife

[headheart]

This shows clearly enough you are hardly worth discussing anything with.... Goodbye.

Tantra Aum?

[Andius]

This shows clearly enough you are hardly worth discussing anything with.... Goodbye.

Well excuse me for actually being awares of the cruel realities of our existence, and the implications of your held worldview.

[headheart]

Ah Love! could thou and I with Fate conspire

To grasp this sorry Scheme of Things entire,

Would we not shatter in to bits - and then

Re-mould it nearer to the Heart's desire!

73 Rubaiyat of Omar Kayyam

[Daniel7:14]

h.h.,
I did not read all the posts, but it seems that you wish to impose certain conditions upon God, "he would, he couldn't", etc, but you cannot show where any of these "concepts" belong to God. The only path we have to understanding "how and why" God is, or does, is through the gift of salvation via Jesus Christ, by the instruction of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Certainly it might "seem only right" to us, that once God had permitted/ordained the sinner to be punished for say, 1 million years, that he would "relent" and then grant them a reprieve. The only problem is that we can't find that written anywhere. Either we are willing to accept what is given, or in refusing that, there is no need to believe any of it.

Or what if the "sinner" thought that once they had suffered a proper amount of time, they got to "switch" with a redeemed person......you know, "trade places". Hey, you've had it good "long enough"? I'm certain, even as the "rich man", they would seek relief, regardless of how insignificant.

Bless

[Conflicted1]

I think the original question is an excellent one that even many Christians struggle with. However, to clarify one thing, I think the situation as presented in Christianity is not that people generally choose heaven or hell. I think it is more correct to say that everyone is destined for hell (unless you are perfect – and you are not). The condition of man is painted as shockingly bleak. Therefore we call it the “good news” when we find that Jesus offers a way to escape. In Christianity, hell is the default condition for man.

But, that only slightly changes the difficulty that Kismetology presents. Why is hell the appropriate punishment for everyone who is not perfect? Even human beings generally accept that someone who does bad things should get punished. Parents punish children. Judges deliver punishment to criminals. I think we generally accept that the notion of punishment is ok, even appropriate. But we really struggle with punishment that is so extreme as the punishment we believe will be delivered in hell. And it seems that God could have figured out something that would be a little more “merciful”. Or, even further, why does He feel the need to punish anyone to begin with? What is to be gained by eternal punishment? There is no opportunity to “reform”, so it seems like it is simply “payback” – but for what?

I don’t have a nice concise answer for that, but I do think that one of the clear points of Jesus’ teaching is that we greatly – I mean greatly – underestimate the “badness” of the mistakes we make. I used that phrase intentionally because that’s what we often call them – mistakes. Jesus called them “sin” and he didn’t have anything good to say about it. He was very blunt about it (for example, see the Sermon on the Mount). Also, the Bible clearly teaches that sin is against God, primarily. So…should God just forget all about it? Can He?

I guess the only thing I can say is this: if I go a little overboard one night, get just slightly drunk, but only have a short drive home, I sure think I deserve some mercy from any cop who might pull me over. I didn’t mean to make a habit of it or anything, etc. etc. I’m really good at justifying my bad decisions. On the other hand, if someone else drives drunk, swerves a foot over the center line, striking my beautiful daughter and killing her instantly, I sure hope he burns in hell for that.

So, doesn’t the question then become one of degree? It doesn’t seem to us that most of us have done anything nearly bad enough to warrant hell. And, for most of us, we don’t even see why God would take offense at what we have done. Or, at least, not an eternity’s worth of offense. And besides, He’s God – so why can’t he just forget the whole thing and let us just be dead and oblivious to all?

I don’t think the Bible ever really answers Kismetology’s question directly. But what it does say is this – that God, in the form of Jesus, felt it necessary to undergo unfathomable punishment and pain in order to “pay for our sins”. God doesn’t really tell us why he couldn’t just forget about our sins, but this ultimate act of Jesus demonstrates the depth and seriousness of our sin to God. Either that, or God foolishly paid in blood when a simple written pardon would have sufficed!

For me, the bottom line is that Christianity doesn’t really make sense until you agree with the basic premise that the way we live our life…our sin…is more than bad enough to deserve whatever punishment God decides to dole out. Jesus himself said “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” I’ll never accept that someone slicing me open with a sharp knife is a positive thing until I realize that the tumor within me needs to get out before it kills me.

[Daniel7:14]

Con,

God does have a "merciful plan", it is called ...salvation....through Jesus Christ. Even as you recognize, the "status" of man is...bleak....to say the least. If you recall the word says that hell was prepared for Satan and his angels. It is also for his "children", those who have rejected the invitation.

We, as humans, attempt to minimalize what wretched creatures we really are. The standard is: "...well, I'm not nearly as bad as so-in-so..." Yet there is a holy God, who is not just merciful, but absolutely...JUST...in all his decisions and ways.

Even as there is no "other way" for the sinner, that standard ushers in no "other way" for those who are saved. By the atoning work of God the Son. Not by anything that we can do, to present ourselves as acceptable to God, it is the saving work of the Lord.

We have no choice other than the two options. Do you recall that Schmegel said to Frodo; "...Either go in........or go back...", there is no third option. We can choose to believe, or not, to our salvation, or to our eternal detriment.

Bless

[Daniel7:14]

Con,

I type quite slow, so I find submitting short concepts works best for me. You are correct in that we are never faced with the answer sheet that says: Check one: (1) Heaven, (2) Hell. We are told in John, that: "...he is...condemned already...", because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son. The non-believer is simply waiting for the "fullness" to be played out in his life.

Bless

[Conflicted1]

Dan,

I agree with you - especially regarding our attempts to minimize what wretched creatures we are. And therefore - probably as a direct result of that - I struggle with the concept of some kind of eternal punishment because it seems so extreme. If I was making up a religion, I wouldn't have made God inflict eternal punishment. It would have been somehow a lesser punishment. I guess, for me personally, I was convinced of the truth of Christianity for many other reasons, and, as a result, I accept that there are some things that I struggle with, and the concept of eternal punishment is one of them - maybe the only one, really.

I really liked the concept of hell that CS Lewis presented in the Great Divorce, but I'm not sure it reflects the Biblical concept that well. In the end, I don't think we'll ever get the chance to argue with God over the intensity of his punishment. We'll either find it all obvious when we stand before him, or, if he doesn't exist, then there'll be no one there to argue with.

[Daniel7:14]

Con,

In facing situations in our every day life, some of them unpleasant, we are best served by coming to the realization that........our ability......in being able to resolve them, is normally quite limited. Yet, what we are given, through Christ, is the understanding that he gives us strength, for the necessary "change" to transpire in us. Christ shows us another "portion" of the eternal, the everlasting promise, that we stand to inherit. I have found it to be "renewing" in my resolve, to finish the course, bringing me closer each and every day.

Our reward is tooooooooooo wonderful to express, mere words fail to adequately depict the glory that awaits us. The faith that God has given us is strength....in due season......., even though we struggle within our finite minds, with questions such as yours. Take courage my friend, you are not alone in your endeavors.

I have confidence in You God, that you have my, and not only mine, eternal destination as your foremost thought. Not only are You the Way, but you are also the "light" that shines upon that very path, and upon my foot, that it slips not.

Bless

Dan