The Use, Value, and Meaning of John 1:1 in Witnessing to JWs

[apostoli]

Sounds like the experience of your JW friends was different than David Reed's experience. How shall we determine whose experience is more normative?

Good point! I can only give a viewpoint who as an outsider experienced 18 years of persecution by my fanatical ex-wife but not by the JW organisation its self. The Oz Bethel wasn't far from where we lived, and we had a lot of association with those guys, so maybe my experience would have been different otherwise. Admittedly my last continuous association with those guys was over 20 years ago, but off and on I bump into people...

[RBerman]

Good point! I can only give a viewpoint who as an outsider experienced 18 years of persecution by my fanatical ex-wife but not by the JW organisation its self. The Oz Bethel wasn't far from where we lived, and we had a lot of association with those guys, so maybe my experience would have been different otherwise. Admittedly my last continuous association with those guys was over 20 years ago, but off and on I bump into people...

Perhaps their standards and practices have declined in the last 20 years. The JWs who have visited my house in the last couple of years did not impress me with their knowledge of the Scriptures.

[apostoli]

Perhaps their standards and practices have declined in the last 20 years. The JWs who have visited my house in the last couple of years did not impress me with their knowledge of the Scriptures.

That could be true. Though I suspect your experience would be dependent on the maturity of the persons you have encountered. For example: Some 40 years ago, when Chariot of the Gods was on the best seller list, I got a knock on the door by a couple of JWs and quized them on Ezekiel, which is basically how they came into my family's lives. At the time, we were buying a house in a new dormitory suburb on the outskirts of Sydney, and a few weeks later my family moved there. So here was I with an hour and a half commute to work (and return) and my young bride and two kids in isolation, and along comes these warm friendly people...sucked in....

Anyway, in the first contact, I was asked if I had a bible. Very proudly I exclaimed yes! And after a bit of a search dragged it out. Then I was asked if I had ever read it! With my proverbial tail between my legs I had to admit I hadn't. So I must admit gratitude to the JWs for enthusing me to read scripture. Now I did have a thorough education in the Catholic Catechism and was familiar with rote scripture, so I wasn't exactly a soft touch, so I did give them some pain. Around this time I got a new boss and we became friends, he had been an elder in the Open Brethren (a few years later he quit his position at work and became a Presbyterian minister), anyway at the time, being naive, I was studying with the JWs and would discuss with Graham the things I was learning. Quite often he was stumped! At one time he got me to go see one of his Open Brethren elders who happened to be a lecturer in Greek at Moore College (Sydney University) and on several issues he too was stumped. Then I had correspondence (snail mail) with the head of one of the seminaries here in Sydney, and often that fellow was stumped. Being totally naive I even rang the Archbishop of Sydney (RCC), Archdeacon of Sydney (CoE) and even the Chief Rabbi at the Greater Synagogue in Sydney who couldn't always answer my questions off the top of their head (in numerous conversations I only got fogged off once and that was by the Archdeacon).

The moral of my tale: in 40+ years I've rarely been impressed with peoples' knowledge of the Scriptures...especially on a cold call...

[David_A_Reed]

That could be true. Though I suspect your experience would be dependent on the maturity of the persons you have encountered. For example: Some 40 years ago, when Chariot of the Gods was on the best seller list, I got a knock on the door by a couple of JWs and quized them on Ezekiel, which is basically how they came into my family's lives. At the time, we were buying a house in a new dormitory suburb on the outskirts of Sydney, and a few weeks later my family moved there. So here was I with an hour and a half commute to work (and return) and my young bride and two kids in isolation, and along comes these warm friendly people...sucked in....

Anyway, in the first contact, I was asked if I had a bible. Very proudly I exclaimed yes! And after a bit of a search dragged it out. Then I was asked if I had ever read it! With my proverbial tail between my legs I had to admit I hadn't. So I must admit gratitude to the JWs for enthusing me to read scripture. Now I did have a thorough education in the Catholic Catechism and was familiar with rote scripture, so I wasn't exactly a soft touch, so I did give them some pain. Around this time I got a new boss and we became friends, he had been an elder in the Open Brethren (a few years later he quit his position at work and became a Presbyterian minister), anyway at the time, being naive, I was studying with the JWs and would discuss with Graham the things I was learning. Quite often he was stumped! At one time he got me to go see one of his Open Brethren elders who happened to be a lecturer in Greek at Moore College (Sydney University) and on several issues he too was stumped. Then I had correspondence (snail mail) with the head of one of the seminaries here in Sydney, and often that fellow was stumped. Being totally naive I even rang the Archbishop of Sydney (RCC), Archdeacon of Sydney (CoE) and even the Chief Rabbi at the Greater Synagogue in Sydney who couldn't always answer my questions off the top of their head (in numerous conversations I only got fogged off once and that was by the Archdeacon).

The moral of my tale: in 40+ years I've rarely been impressed with peoples' knowledge of the Scriptures...especially on a cold call...

Unfortunately, what comes across as knowledge of the Scriptures, in the case of the vast majority of JWs, is actually indoctrination and training in the Watchtower Society's clever arguments.

Rather than read the Scriptures themselves, JWs sit through countless hours of training sessions where these arguments and techniques are demonstrated for them -- one JW playing the part of the householder they are to visit, and the other playing the part of a knowledgeable JW presenting their prepared presentation.

Christians are caught off guard, and find themselves quite often unable to answer the JW arguments because they are so unexpected -- and so well prepared and crafted. That's why I advise Christians to brush up on the JW arguments before getting into discussions with them.

David

[apostoli]

Unfortunately, what comes across as knowledge of the Scriptures, in the case of the vast majority of JWs, is actually indoctrination and training in the Watchtower Society's clever arguments.

Rather than read the Scriptures themselves, JWs sit through countless hours of training sessions where these arguments and techniques are demonstrated for them -- one JW playing the part of the householder they are to visit, and the other playing the part of a knowledgeable JW presenting their prepared presentation.

Christians are caught off guard, and find themselves quite often unable to answer the JW arguments because they are so unexpected -- and so well prepared and crafted. That's why I advise Christians to brush up on the JW arguments before getting into discussions with them.

Criticism of the JWs aside, what I admire about their organisation is that (at least in the past) they have/had a continuous education programme...so I encourage all "christians" to turn the TV off occasionally and imitate them...

[RBerman]

Yup. It's amazing how much can get done when the TV is turned off!

[apostoli]

Rather than read the Scriptures themselves, JWs sit through countless hours of training sessions where these arguments and techniques are demonstrated for them -- one JW playing the part of the householder they are to visit, and the other playing the part of a knowledgeable JW presenting their prepared presentation.

I'm not aware of that scenario, then again I haven't had direct contact for 20+ years. Around 40 years ago: my now ex-wife went through a sort of apprenticeship - when she went witnessing she was accompanied either by an elder or a mature person and taken through the ropes. In general study, one would be asked "How would you respond if someone asked you X?" Then we'd discuss "X". In my experience, whilst I'd agree that the "Book study" and "Watchtower study" were very close to the way, as a kid at school, my class mates and I studied the Catholic Catechism and Catholic dogma - I found personal study with the JWs (one on one) more informative, with their direction being preparing people to witness the Gospel...in the educational respect, I can't fault the JWs - my disagreement with them is purely doctrinal...

Christians are caught off guard, and find themselves quite often unable to answer the JW arguments because they are so unexpected

Just shows how the typical token "christian" is totally ignorant of scripture. Most have never read it, let alone thought about it!

and so well prepared and crafted.

Just shows the advantage of a formal educational programme, and the general failure of the majority of churches who focus on dogmatics rather than the message of scripture.

That's why I advise Christians to brush up on the JW arguments before getting into discussions with them.

I simply advise people to learn and understand what their church teaches and how to defend such a belief from scripture. eg: Here on Tweb there are numerous persons that propound Sabellianism and aren't even aware of it, so they automatically invalidate their own opinion (given its heretical) and validate the JW opinion concerning the broader church that whilst they claim Trinitarianism, they preach Sabellianism...