White Supremacists protest at UVA

[Starlight]

The current scientific consensus is that race is a social construct because 1. racial categories change based on geographical location and time period and 2. racial categories are incongruous with genetic groups which have little to do with skin color. Yet another way conservatives are anti-science.

I would say the reality is more complicated. There are real genetic differences between people-groups, and in that sense the notion of 'races' seems scientifically backed. There's a good discussion here.

[tabibito]

Oh ok, then it's not an example of the victors rewriting history, you just made that up so you can launch into a completely different topic (also, your analogy is pretty bad, trade embargos are not in the same category as military action whereas a kick in the shin is in the same category as a physical attack)

And "trade embargo" is a euphemism for (or at least includes) "blockade" in this case. OK - not "kicking in the shins", just stealing the lunch money.

[Roy]

so? If I want to discriminate against leprechauns who am I hurting?

Anyone you discriminate against because you think they are a leprechaun even though they aren't.

[Psychic Missile]

I would say the reality is more complicated. There are real genetic differences between people-groups, and in that sense the notion of 'races' seems scientifically backed. There's a good discussion here.

Great article. The problem is that there are so many different angles on genetic variation and racial division that contradict our current social understanding in the US that any classification will end up being arbitrary. You can't tell a scientist "this person is black" and have them understand any biological truths about an individual. Scientific accuracy depends upon more specific descriptors than the race construct allows.

[Sparko]

Great article. The problem is that there are so many different angles on genetic variation and racial division that contradict our current social understanding in the US that any classification will end up being arbitrary. You can't tell a scientist "this person is black" and have them understand any biological truths about an individual. Scientific accuracy depends upon more specific descriptors than the race construct allows.

Great so when a black person complains about my white privilege and demands affirmative action, we can call him delusional because there is no such thing as race and if there is no white race, I can't have white race privilege and we don't have to give the black race any special treatment like affirmative action.

[Adrift]

Great so when a black person complains about my white privilege and demands affirmative action, we can call him delusional because there is no such thing as race and if there is no white race, I can't have white race privilege and we don't have to give the black race any special treatment like affirmative action.

I was listening to NPR the other day and they were discussing a very real problem that was happening in Brazil with Affirmative Action and race. Only a small percentage of Afro-Brazilians are in higher education or have high salary jobs. Affirmative Action seeks to change this, and, they say, have been making inroads in this, but the big problem is that it's really hard to distinguish race in Brazil. There's so much admixture that it's really hard to distinguish someone who is supposed to be "white" from someone who might be considered "black" or mulatto. It's been discovered that a lot of people who the government would not identify as a minority have been tricking the system in order to take advantage of Affirmative Action in order to get accepted into colleges or get jobs. There's also an issue with people who would not consider themselves other than white, who are actually dark enough to legitimately get Affirmative Action assistance. So Brazil has had to create panels of judges to decide if someone is black enough to qualify for Affirmative Action. Candidates are awarded points on a numerical scale for how black they may be. So their skin type may land them on a number 4 or 5, while their hair type might land them a 3, and their skull shape might be another type altogether. There's also the problem with different colored skin types on the same body, so the arms might be a type 5, and the face might be a type 4. The candidates must also pass a cultural test. One candidate on the show described how he had to read about black culture, not in Brazil, but in the US, so that he had some sort of context for the questions he might be asked by the panel.

The whole program was completely surreal to listen to, and NPR didn't seem to indicate that any of this was absurd or crazy at all...that Brazil was just having issues getting their Affirmative Action program to work as it ought to. Very very strange.

[rogue06]

Because, as their comments amply demonstrate, some of those here agree with the attitudes and actions of the torch, shield and gun-wielding right-wingers who demonstrated in Charlottesville.

Looks like the claims by Virginia Governor Terry McAuliffe about guns stashed by the white nationalists was "fake news" according to the Virginia State Police.

[rogue06]

Oh - Japan attacked America true enough - just like one school child attacks another that has been kicking him in the shins at every opportunity for the past month or so. (or, in the case of Japan/America, 80 years near about.)

Are you equating the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor with a school child kicking someone in the shins?

[rogue06]

I think you're a bit confused, son. Race is a biological fact. Racism, which is the belief that one set of genetic differences is inherently superior to another set, is a social construct.

Race is an artificial social construct as modern science, especially genetic analysis, has repeatedly demonstrated that the vast majority of variation between humans correlates little, if at all, with racial boundaries and that humans are remarkably homogeneous genetically^[1]. When we apply simple biological methods the fact is that commonly defined racial groups lack clear-cut genetic boundaries. There is no gene or cluster of genes common to all blacks or all whites or all Asians or whatever^[2].

As an example of this, recently the full genomes of two American geneticists of European descent, Craig Venter and James Watson, were compared to that of a Korean scientist, Seong-Jin Kim. The results revealed that Venter and Watson actually shared fewer variations in their genetic sequences than they each shared with Kim.

Finally, if race was truly "real" in the genetic sense, then racial classifications would be consistent across boundaries. For instance, a person who would be categorized as black in the United States could be considered white in Brazil and "colored" in South Africa^[3].









1. And yet the concept of race is so socially ingrained you can still find genetic studies published in major scientific journals where categories like "white" and "black" are being used as biological variables -- although recently efforts are underway to phase them out (see, for instance, Taking race out of human genetics by Yudell et. al. which points to evidence from phylogenetics and population genetics "that racial classifications do not makes sense in terms of genetics.")

2. As Svante Pääbo, director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology and who successful sequenced Neanderthal mitochondrial DNA, said "What the study of complete genomes from different parts of the world has shown is that even between Africa and Europe, for example, there is not a single absolute genetic difference, meaning no single variant where all Africans have one variant and all Europeans another one, even when recent migration is disregarded."

3. Apparently, under the old apartheid system a person's racial category could change, both socially and legally -- at least according to Trevor Noah, who wrote a book about his experiences as a bi-racial child in South Africa.

[Psychic Missile]

Great so when a black person complains about my white privilege and demands affirmative action, we can call him delusional because there is no such thing as race and if there is no white race, I can't have white race privilege and we don't have to give the black race any special treatment like affirmative action.

Race being a social construct doesn't mean there's no such thing as race. Try thinking about things for more than half a second.

[Sparko]

Race being a social construct doesn't mean there's no such thing as race. Try thinking about things for more than half a second.

sheesh. Make up your mind. You can't have it both ways. Either races are real or they are not. If they are not then people cannot claim they are one race or another. If it is real, then it doesn't matter if it is genetically based or socially based.

[Psychic Missile]

sheesh. Make up your mind. You can't have it both ways. Either races are real or they are not. If they are not then people cannot claim they are one race or another. If it is real, then it doesn't matter if it is genetically based or socially based.

Race is real as a social construct. Social constructs are still things that exist.

The government is a social construct but it still exists. How paradoxical!

It shouldn't be this hard to comprehend.

[Sparko]

Race is real as a social construct. Social constructs are still things that exist.

The government is a social construct but it still exists. How paradoxical!

It shouldn't be this hard to comprehend.

then your earlier objection to seer is nonsensical since you were arguing that race isn't something real but "just a social construct"

No, it isn't. Race is a social construct.

[firstfloor]

Look sharp, here he comes.

Good afternoon Mr President.

How’s it going Mike? … You know, I’ve been thinking we ought to ask David Duke up to dinner. Did you see what he wrote? What you think?

Ah? Isn’t he some sort of Klan …

Yeah, he’s a Clan Chief. My mother was Scottish. Did I tell you? …Great golf courses; I own a couple. I need to get Davey boy out for a game at Turnberry. It’s really great. Could we fix that up Beth? I’m free tomorrow.

Where’s Turnberry?

We need to fly into Prestwick. Check the weather for over there. Not too much wind and no rain.

Where’s Prestwick?

And can you order some golf balls – you know, with the President’s logo on them. It’ll be great.
Gotta run, speak to you later.

What just happened Mike?

Ah, … let’s just think about this for a moment …. I need a glass of water.

This could be a bit tricky. So, Turnberry …. that’s three hours time difference .. flight about eight hours, play about 1.00pm and say an hour to get there from Prestwick, so we need to be away from here about midnight tonight. Doesn’t give us much time Beth.

Okay. Here’s what we do. Step 1. Check his diary. …… Right, there’s nothing there we can’t cancel.
Step 2. Check the weather forecast for Turnberry, yeah, windy.com, Okay, weather’s good enough.
Step 3. Let’s phone David Duke. Have you got a number? Yeah, that’s him.

Hello, Mr Duke? I have the Vice President on the phone to speak to you. Please hold for a moment.

Thanks Beth. Hello David, it’s Mike Pence here, how are you Sir?
Good, good, .. Yeah, The President was very pleased with your comment … Yeah, I know, the whole thing is a little unexpected, ha, ha …. Anyway, the reason for my call is that The President would like to offer you a game of golf with him at Turnberry tomorrow afternoon. Yes, it’s Turnberry in Scotland. Yeah, it’s a bit away … but I can assure you that we will take care of all the transport and everything. Hey, if we can’t do it, who can?

So, do you play golf David? …. Ha, ha.. shoot guns rather than shoot scores … yeah, nice one.. ha, ha. Well, listen, you know it doesn’t matter too much if you don’t, because, you know, it’s a chance to meet and you know, it’s really the president’s thing and he drives round in a buggy, so its very social, yeah, and you can have a couple of cans …. yeah, so what do you drink David? Okay, no problem. …. You know, if you’re worried; we can arrange some coaching for you on the flight over. ....No, really, the president won’t mind a bit. ....Well, yes, not full shots. ....No, I don’t think you would get a full swing on the airplane – yeah, it would hit the overhead lockers, ha, ha. So, I’m thinking foam balls and you would learn a little half swing. Honestly, it’s not so difficult.

Excellent David, excellent. So, what happens next is we will send a car to pick you up and take you to the airport and you will meet up with the president when you land at Andrews. ...Okay, yeah, just a small overnight bag and your goodself. One hour from now David, thanks. ...Yeah, I know, … he’s very spontaneous. Okay, great.

Oh, before you go David, do you happen to own any tartan; a scarf or trousers or something. No? Got any Scottish ancestors? ….. Oh, really, Mexican Jews? Wow! ....Well, what I would suggest is that when he talks about his mother and so on that you show a keen interest. It would go down well … Great. Thanks. Oh and just one last thing David, if you don’t mind, would you please avoiding mention of your connection with the, erm, with the Knights .. eh, and so on? ...Yes, indeed and probably best not to mention, what do you call it?, em, the Grand Wizard thing. Yes, The President is more focused on hotels, you see, and golf. Golfing hotels are a specialty. Ha, ha, yes indeed.

Oh and one final, final thing David; it would be best if nobody else gets to know about this. Well, of course, we don’t want any more fake news in the news, do we? ....That’s excellent. Okay, well, I hope everything goes smoothly and you have a great day tomorrow, Bye now David. Bye.

I need a cigarette. …. Right, listen carefully now Beth. This is all very hush, hush. We get a small plane, fly them over, diplomatic pouch sort of thing, like extraordinary rendition, remember? We’ll pick up a bag of clubs over there but we need a golf coach and some foam balls for the flight, and a couple of sandwiches. No more than two guys with them. The Brits don’t get to know. No press, nothing, okay? Good.

Did I leave anything out?

[Sparko]

Look sharp, here he comes.

Good afternoon Mr President.

How’s it going Mike? … You know, I’ve been thinking we ought to ask David Duke up to dinner. Did you see what he wrote? What you think?

Ah? Isn’t he some sort of Klan …

Yeah, he’s a Clan Chief. My mother was Scottish. Did I tell you? …Great golf courses; I own a couple. I need to get Davey boy out for a game at Turnberry. It’s really great. Could we fix that up Beth? I’m free tomorrow.

Where’s Turnberry?

We need to fly into Prestwick. Check the weather for over there. Not too much wind and no rain.

Where’s Prestwick?

And can you order some golf balls – you know, with the President’s logo on them. It’ll be great.
Gotta run, speak to you later.

What just happened Mike?

Ah, … let’s just think about this for a moment …. I need a glass of water.

This could be a bit tricky. So, Turnberry …. that’s three hours time difference .. flight about eight hours, play about 1.00pm and say an hour to get there from Prestwick, so we need to be away from here about midnight tonight. Doesn’t give us much time Beth.

Okay. Here’s what we do. Step 1. Check his diary. …… Right, there’s nothing there we can’t cancel.
Step 2. Check the weather forecast for Turnberry, yeah, windy.com, Okay, weather’s good enough.
Step 3. Let’s phone David Duke. Have you got a number? Yeah, that’s him.

Hello, Mr Duke? I have the Vice President on the phone to speak to you. Please hold for a moment.

Thanks Beth. Hello David, it’s Mike Pence here, how are you Sir?
Good, good, .. Yeah, The President was very pleased with your comment … Yeah, I know, the whole thing is a little unexpected, ha, ha …. Anyway, the reason for my call is that The President would like to offer you a game of golf with him at Turnberry tomorrow afternoon. Yes, it’s Turnberry in Scotland. Yeah, it’s a bit away … but I can assure you that we will take care of all the transport and everything. Hey, if we can’t do it, who can?

So, do you play golf David? …. Ha, ha.. shoot guns rather than shoot scores … yeah, nice one.. ha, ha. Well, listen, you know it doesn’t matter too much if you don’t, because, you know, it’s a chance to meet and you know, it’s really the president’s thing and he drives round in a buggy, so its very social, yeah, and you can have a couple of cans …. yeah, so what do you drink David? Okay, no problem. …. You know, if you’re worried; we can arrange some coaching for you on the flight over. ....No, really, the president won’t mind a bit. ....Well, yes, not full shots. ....No, I don’t think you would get a full swing on the airplane – yeah, it would hit the overhead lockers, ha, ha. So, I’m thinking foam balls and you would learn a little half swing. Honestly, it’s not so difficult.

Excellent David, excellent. So, what happens next is we will send a car to pick you up and take you to the airport and you will meet up with the president when you land at Andrews. ...Okay, yeah, just a small overnight bag and your goodself. One hour from now David, thanks. ...Yeah, I know, … he’s very spontaneous. Okay, great.

Oh, before you go David, do you happen to own any tartan; a scarf or trousers or something. No? Got any Scottish ancestors? ….. Oh, really, Mexican Jews? Wow! ....Well, what I would suggest is that when he talks about his mother and so on that you show a keen interest. It would go down well … Great. Thanks. Oh and just one last thing David, if you don’t mind, would you please avoiding mention of your connection with the, erm, with the Knights .. eh, and so on? ...Yes, indeed and probably best not to mention, what do you call it?, em, the Grand Wizard thing. Yes, The President is more focused on hotels, you see, and golf. Golfing hotels are a specialty. Ha, ha, yes indeed.

Oh and one final, final thing David; it would be best if nobody else gets to know about this. Well, of course, we don’t want any more fake news in the news, do we? ....That’s excellent. Okay, well, I hope everything goes smoothly and you have a great day tomorrow, Bye now David. Bye.

I need a cigarette. …. Right, listen carefully now Beth. This is all very hush, hush. We get a small plane, fly them over, diplomatic pouch sort of thing, like extraordinary rendition, remember? We’ll pick up a bag of clubs over there but we need a golf coach and some foam balls for the flight, and a couple of sandwiches. No more than two guys with them. The Brits don’t get to know. No press, nothing, okay? Good.

Did I leave anything out?

You should write fanfic. I bet that site that pretends Hillary won the election would hire you.