January 26th 2013, 11:01 PM #1
The Gentiles (Acts 10) were saved before their water baptism
I see that foudroyant believes the Gentiles were saved before their water baptism when the Holy Spirit fell upon them. The Bible though teaches that the Gentiles were saved when they were water baptized.
I see that you believe that the water baptism in Acts 2:38 is for the forgiveness of sins.
Now you are arguing that the Gentiles here were saved before they were water baptized. This is two different ways of salvation when the Bible says that God is not a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34). Since water baptism is for the forgiveness of sins in Acts 2:38 then it is also for the forgiveness of sins in Acts 10:48.
Both Balaam (Numbers 24:2) and Caiaphas (John 11:49-52) prophesied by the Holy Spirit but that doesn't mean they were saved. When the Gentiles were empowered by the Holy Spirit doesn't prove they were saved either.
If the Holy Spirit falling upon the Gentiles proves they were saved before their water baptism then it also proves that they were saved without faith for Peter tells us that the Holy Spirit fell upon the Gentiles when Peter "began" to speak (Acts 11:15). Since faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17) then the Gentiles did not even hear the message of salvation when the Holy Spirit fell upon them. Indeed, Peter's rehearsal of the events were in more orderly sequence (Acts 11:4) to the timing of when the Holy Spirit fell. By the Spirit's falling Peter and those with him were convinced that God had allowed them to preach the message of salvation to the Gentiles and this message included the command to be water baptized for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 10:48).
Finally, Peter was to tell the Gentiles what they were to do (Acts 10:6). This coincides with Acts 10:34 in which Peter was to tell all the things that were commanded of him by God to tell Cornelius. In other words Peter was to tell Cornelius how to be saved. The only command given by Peter to Cornelius was the command to be water baptized (Acts 10:48). Before this time no command was given which proves this command is part of the gospel message and until Cornelius obeyed this command he was not yet saved. This shows that being empowered by the Spirit did not mean Cornelius was saved. Only until he obeyed the command to be water baptized was he saved. To say that he was saved contradicts the above passages. Also 2 Thessalonians 2:9 says that the Lord Jesus will take vengeance on those who do not obey the gospel. The Gentiles were obedient to the gospel when they obeyed the command to be water baptized for the forgiveness of their sins (Acts 10:48). Salvation is not possible before obedience to the gospel.
Not only then do we read what happened with the Gentiles in Acts 10 but we should also read what the Bible has to say in Acts 11 and in neither place (or anywhere else) does it say that before their water baptism they were saved, justified, given new life, etc.
January 29th 2013, 01:35 AM #2
Re: The Gentiles (Acts 10) were saved before their water bap
1. Only certain Jews during this transitional time period were told to be water baptized in the name of the Lord for the forgiveness of sins because they delivered (paradidwmi) Christ up to Pilate which constituted “the greater sin” (John 19:11). Peter told the Jews in his audience they delivered (paradidwmi) Him up to Pilate (Acts 3:13). Compared with all other people these Jews were not strangers to the covenants of promise (Ephesians 2:12) which testified of Christ (John 5:39). They saw many of His miracles and heard many of His words. Their greater sin required a greater form of repentance – water baptism in the Name of their Messiah whom they crucified (See William Murk’s “Four Kinds of Water Baptism”).
NIDNTT: In the report of the trial before Pilate into which are interwoven many legal ideas Pilate pronounces his repeated conclusion that he can find no guilt in Jesus deserving death (in Jn. 18:38; 19:4, 6, aitia; in Lk. 23:4, 14, 22, aition). Hence in the Gospel accounts the demand of the crowd for the death of the innocent one is all the more culpable (2:139, Guilt, Thiele).
No clear cut case exists in Scripture of any Gentile being water baptized in the name of the Lord for the forgiveness of sins.
2. From when the New Testament Church began to be empowered by the Holy Spirit means to have received the Holy Spirit. This would indicate a saved person.
a. TDNT: ...the Spirit is for Paul the power of the new life (2:209, dikaiosune, Schrenk).
b. Mounce: In conversion the believer is made new, brought from death to life (Eph. 2:1, 5), by the power of God's Holy Spirit (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words. Regeneration, page 569).
c. NIDNTT: It is the Spirit, who, as the power of Christ, realizes the authority of the heavenly Lord in the earthly community. It is he who, to use E. Kasemannn's phrase, is Christus praesens. ([Ed..] This shown for example, in the way that Paul describes the Christian life sometimes in terms of a relationship with Christ [e.g. Rom. 5:1; 1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor. 5:19 ff.; Gal. 2:20 f.; 4:6 ff.; Phil. 2:21; 3:8 ff.] and sometimes as a relationship with the Spirit [e.g. Rom. 8:11, 14 ff.; 1 Cor. 2:4, 12 f.; 2 Cor. 3:6; 5:5; Gal. 4:6]. Paul is describing the same basic experience, but in the one case he is approaching it from the standpoint of Christ and in the other case from that of the Spirit through whom Christ is made present to the believer. The two thoughts are brought together in, e.g., Eph. 2:18; Phil. 1:19, cf. 26.) (2:605, Might, O. Betz).
3. The gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:45 both refer to the Holy Spirit Himself.
a. Danker: receive the Spirit as a gift Ac. 2:38; cp. 10:45 (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, dwrea, page 266).
b. TDNT: In Ac. the Spirit is called the dwrea of God in 2:38; 8:20; 10:45; 11:17 (2:167, dwrea, Buchsel).
c. Thayer: with an epexegetical gen. of the thing given, the Holy Ghost, Ac 2:38, 10:45 (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, dwrea, page 161).
d. Vine: In Acts 2:38 "the gift of the Holy Ghost", the clause is epexegetical, the gift being the Holy Ghost Himself; cf. 10:45; 11:17 (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Gift - dwrea, page 477).
4. If one has "the gift of the Holy Spirit" then they are saved. The Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit before they wre water baptized which proves they were already saved before they were water baptized.
a. NIDNTT: 6a The Spirit as the fundamental mark of belonging to Christ.
As with the first Christians so with Paul, the gift of the Spirit is what makes the individual a member of Christ (Rom. 8:9; cf. 1 Cor. 2:12; 2 Cor. 11:4; 1 Thess. 4:8), united with him through the Spirit (1 Cor. 6:17), a sharer in his sonship (Rom. 8:14-6; Gal. 4:6). The Spirit, as it were, is the exalted Lord's steward taking possession of his property on his behalf (1 Cor. 3:16; 6:19 f.). It is the reception of the Spirit through faith which marks the beginning of the Christian life (Gal. 3:2 f.), a gift which fulfills the promise to Abraham and which therefore is another name for justification (Gal. 3:14; 1 Cor. 6:11) - that is, the gift of righteousness understood as having "the character of power" (cf. E. Kasemann, "'The Righteousness of God' in Paul", New Testament Questions of Today, 1969, 168-182). Alternatively expressed, it is by being baptized in the one Spirit, drenched with the one Spirit, that individuals become members of the one body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13). For Paul it was precisely the gift of the Spirit which distinguished the Christian from the Jew, the new age from the old (Rom. 2:29; 7:6; 2 Cor. 3:6-8; Gal. 4:29; Phil. 3:3) (NIDNTT 3:701, Spirit, J.D.G. Dunn).
b. TDNT: The very same gift of the greatest thing that man can receive, the gift of the Holy Spirit, accomplishes and bears witness to the equality of the recipients before God, and establishes the unity of the Church (3:349, isos, Stahlin).
c. Mounce: Christian hope is strengthened by the Scriptures (Rom. 15:4), by the work of Jesus (1 Pet. 1:3, 21), and by God's present gift of the Spirit to believers (Rom. 5:5) (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Hope, page 341).
d. Thayer: respecting God, who by the gift of the Holy Spirit indicates who are his, pass., Eph. 1:13; 4:30; absol., mid. with tina, 2 Co. 1:22 (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, sphragizw, page 609).
e. Vine: In the metaphor of the sealing of believers by the gift of the Holy Spirit, upon believing (i.e., at the time of their regeneration, not after a lapse of time in their spiritual life, "having also believed" - not as A.V., "after that ye believed" - ; the aorist participle marks the definiteness and completeness of the act of faith (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Seal, page 1003).
5. Whereas the Holy Spirit worked through both believers (1 Samuel 16:13) and unbelievers (Numbers 24:2) during the Old Covenant era John 7:39 teaches that during the New Testament Church era (cf. Acts 2:4) He would "enter into and become the life of the believer, producing in him the life of Jesus” (S.H. Hooke, NTS, 9, 1962-63, page 380). Thus when the NT Church began (Acts 2:4) only saved (Christian) people possessed Him (Romans 8:9; 1 John 3:24, 4:13). The Word Biblical Commentary on Romans 8:9 makes this clear:
In what amounts to the nearest thing to a definition of "Christian" in his writings, Paul defines a Christian, albeit in negative formulation, as one who has the Spirit of Christ (Romans 1-8, 38A, James Dunn, page 444).
6. Acts 10:6 can not be used to show the Gentiles were not saved until they were water baptized.
a. Because the Holy Spirit is “given” to those who obey God (Acts 5:32) proves the Gentiles were already obedient to what God commanded them before their water baptism (Acts 11:17; 15:8). This cancels the argument that Acts 10:6 teaches that their water baptism was necessary for their salvation.
b. Citing Acts 5:32; 10:44 and 15:8 the TDNT reads: He who obeys God receives as a reward, not earthly goods, but the one and only gift of the last time by which early Christianity differentiates itself from Judaism, namely, the Spirit of God (4:725, misthos, Preisker).
c. The Gentiles were commanded to believe (Acts 10:43).
1. Concerning “receive”: Only labein (second aorist active infinitive of lambanw) is not indirect statement so much as indirect command or arrangement.
An indirect command is a command nonetheless.
2. TDNT: The fact that Jesus gave the entole (1 Jn. 3:23), and the links with faith in Christ (1 Jn. 3:23; 4:9; 5:1), with assurance of salvation and the joy of prayer (1 Jn. 3:19 ff.), with the gift of the Spirit (1 Jn. 3:24) and with the birth from God (1 Jn. 5:1), make it clear that the command of love applies wholly and exclusively to the new life (2:554, footnote #34, entole, Schrenck).
By possessing the gift of the Holy Spirit necessitates they obeyed the command to believe (1 John 3:23, 24).
d. The Gentiles were commanded to repent (Acts 10:37; 11:18).
1. By implication Peter commanded the Gentiles to repent because they knew (Acts 10:37) that from the beginning of Christ’s ministry in Galilee the quintessential theme was to “repent and believe in the gospel” (Mark 1:15).
2. After hearing the Gentiles had received the Holy Spirit those who challenged Peter replied, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life" (Acts 11:18, NASB). The TDNT reads:
The fact that metanoia is a work of the Spirit (cf. Ac. 11:18 with 11:15ff. and 10:45) is to be explained only on the assumption that Jesus fulfilled John's promise of a baptism of the Spirit. As in the evangelical message of Jesus metanoia and pistis are not only associated (Ac. 20:21, Hb. 6:1, cf. also Ac. 26:18) but belong together (4:1004, metanoia, Behm).
3. The opposition "quieted down" (Acts 11:18) when hearing that the Gentiles were baptized with the the Holy Spirit for they knew that was the decisive thing that proved they were saved. The TDNT reads:
If the water baptism of John, whose divine commission Jesus recognised (Mk. 11:30 par.), effected the conversion of those who awaited the fulfillment of salvation (Mt. 3:11), the spiritual baptism which Jesus gives in the full might of the Consummator of the world is none other than the impartation of divine power which creates men who are subject to the divine rule, i.e., converted men (4:1003, metanoia, Behm).
7. Acts 11:15 - archomai
And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning (Acts 11:15, NASB). The word "began" has a looser meaning in this passage that Martinez is unaware of..
a. Abbot-Smith: (b) relatively -> included is Acts 11:15 (A Manuel Greek Lexicon of the New Testament, arxee, page 62).
b. International Standard Bible Encyclopedia: Often used also, not for the absolute beginning, but, relatively, for the starting-point of some important movement (1 John 2:7, 24; Acts 11:15; Philippians 4:15, Begin, H.E. Jacobs).
c. Robertson: In the beginning to speak as to me (Acts 11:15) http://www.godrules.net/library/robert/robertact11.htm
d. Ernst Haenchen: Luke presents it in this way because then the coming of the Spirit has even more unexpected and decisive effect. The speech in Chapter 11 is comprehensible only to the readers of the book, not to Peter's audience in Jerusalem (The Acts of the Apostles, Ernst Haenchen, page 355)
e. If my preacher was describing a previous sermon by saying, "As I began to preach the Holy Spirit convicted the congregation" it would be perfectly plausible to believe that he was emphasizing the abruptness of the Holy Spirit's conviction. What my preacher said during his sermon was secondary. He wanted to underscore what the Holy Spirit did more than what he preached on. The same holds true with Luke's record of Peter's defense in Acts 11. Luke does not repeat everything that Peter said in Acts 10 but instead he focused on what the Holy Spirit accomplished. -> "He rests his defence, not on what he said, but in what God did" (Robertson, quoting Furneaux). http://www.godrules.net/library/robert/robertact11.htm
f. Not only are we to look at Acts 11 to know more details about what took place in Acts 10 but we ought to also to at Acts 15. Concerning Acts 15:7 Robertson writes:
It was probably a dozen years since God "made choice" (exelexato) to speak by Peter's mouth to Cornelius and the other Gentiles in Caesarea.
The TDNT reads: On the other hand, in 15:7 the comparatively distant days of the first community in and around Jerusalem are intended, i.e., the time of the conversion of Cornelius, which is shown to be particularly venerable by use of arxomai (1:487, arxaios, Delling).
According to Acts 15:7, 8 these Gentiles did indeed hear the message by Peter before believing and receiving the Holy Spirit.
8. Acts 11:4 - kathexes
But Peter began speaking and proceeded to explain to them in orderly sequence, saying, (Acts 11:4, NASB).
a. Danker: sequence in time, space, or logic (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, kathexees, page 490).
b. Louw/Nida: a sequence of one after another in time, space, or logic. Concerning Luke 1:3, 'to write to you in sequence' or '...in an orderly manner' Lk 1.3 (61.1, kathexees, page 610).
c. TDNT: In the dedication of Luke's gospel, after some remarks on his sources and predecessors, we find the words: it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus (1:3). This is Greek style. Here for the first time an Evangelist makes personal reference. He has in view a biography which will go beyond the form of previous Gospels as he diligently and artistically shapes the varied testimonies into a Bios of Jesus. This is a Greek ideal. The execution of the project is Greek also in the sense that the great mass of teaching material, which cannot be fitted kathexes into a chronological or biographical scheme, is made into the account of a journey (2:354, egw, Stauffer).
d. kathexes is also used in Luke 1:3 but the events recorded in Luke 3:18-21 demonstrate that it is not to be understood in strict chronological order. John is preaching which is followed by Herod reproving him. John is then imprisoned. Afterwards the baptism of the Lord Jesus (performed by John) occurs. Luke's account is orderly (logical) but not strictly chronological.
The use of archomai in Acts 11:15 and kathexes in Acts 11:4 do not teach the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit without hearing the gospel message by Peter (cf. Acts 15:7, 8).
9. Acts 15:7-9 (NASB) reads:
After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
a. In Acts 15:7 the word "believe" is used by Peter in describing the response of Cornelius and the other Gentiles after hearing the word of the gospel. The TDNT reads:
In Peter's speech in 15:7 "to believe" is used in the sense "to be converted" (TDNT 7:728, epistrephw, Bertram).
QUESTION #1: Can Martinez cite a source that teaches the word "believe" in Acts 15:7 does not mean salvation had taken place?
b. Anyone that has been “given”(didwmi) the Holy Spirit is saved (1 John 3:24; 4:13). The Gentiles were “given”(didwmi) the Holy Spirit before they were water baptized (Acts 11:17; 15:8). This proves they were saved before they were water baptized.
QUESTION #2: Can Martinez disprove this?
c. Both the “cleansing”(katharizw) in Acts 15:9 and the “cleansing”(katharizw) in Ephesians 5:26 refers to salvation.
Concerning Acts 15:8, 9 Carter and Earle write:
These two verses make a very significant identification. It is sometimes said that while Acts has much to say about being filled with the Holy Spirit, it makes no mention of sanctification. But here Peter declares that when the hearers in Cornelius' house received the Holy Spirit, they also experienced the cleansing (of) their hearts. These are two aspects of one and the same Christian experience....Lake and Cadbury call attention to the great difficulty of translating aorist participles into English, as illustrated here by giving (dous) and cleansing (katharisas). These participles indicate simultaneous but not continuous action. It is impossible to express this exactly in English (The Acts of the Apostles, Charles W. Carter and Ralph Earle, page 211).
The Gentiles then were "cleansed" (saved) before their water baptism.
QUESTION #3: Can Martinez prove that the "cleansing" in Acts 15:9 that the Gentiles experienced before their water baptism does not mean salvation?
January 31st 2013, 10:40 PM #3
Re: The Gentiles (Acts 10) were saved before their water bap
The people in Acts 2:38 were water baptized for the forgiveness of sins and they received the Holy Spirit. The problem with your belief is that you say the the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit before they were water baptized. This contradicts Acts 2:39 - For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Those who are "afar off" would mean the Gentiles (Ephesians 2:13). This means that the Gentiles in Acts 10 had to be water baptized first in order for God to give them the Holy Spirit.
Your position then contradicts the promise of Acts 2:39.
Also, Acts 10:48 says they were "commanded" to be water baptized. How can they be saved when the Spirit fell on them when they had yet to obey this command?
You cited only one source that says "believe" means salvation in Acts 15:7. Why so scant of evidence?
1 John 4:13 says that we can know God because he has given us OF his Spirit (emphasis mine). Again it does not actually mean the Holy Spirit but just his power.
I'd like to also say that even "if" these Gentiles were saved before their water baptism (I believed that they were not yet saved until they were water baptized) this would only be an exception to the rule of Acts 2:38 for when the washing away of sins takes place. It doesn't mean that today a person is saved in such fashion.
February 5th 2013, 12:25 AM #4
Re: The Gentiles (Acts 10) were saved before their water bap
1. To insist that the reception of the Holy Spirit before their water baptism by these Gentiles is an exception is simply a cop out. Acts 15 demonstrates that the conversion of the Gentiles was considered the normative way in which salvation occurs in that the church leadership pronounced a major decision based on its occurrence. All other ways of receiving the Holy Spirit are the "exception" to what took place here.
2. In Acts 2:39 the "promise" refers to a "Who" not to a how. The "promise" is the Holy Spirit (cf. Galatians 3:14; Ephesians 1:13).
a. Robertson: The promise made by Jesus (#1:4) and foretold by Joel (verse #18).
3. Acts 10:48: The Gentiles were commanded to be water baptized.
a. According to Acts 10:48 the Gentiles were commanded to be water baptized. This passage also tells us that they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days. Acts 11:3 informs us that Peter did spend some more time with them. During this time Peter undoubtedly would have spoken of other "commands" of the Christian faith that these new believers were to obey such as partaking of the Lord's Supper (1 Corinthians 12), working out their salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12), etc. The fact that "commands" such as these were not yet obeyed doesn't mean these Gentiles were unsaved. In the exact same way it doesn't mean they were unsaved when they were commanded to be water baptized.
4. You asked why my evidence is so scant concerning the use of "believe" in Acts 15:7 when I at least cited one source for my position but you haven't cited any. Shall one more be enough for you? Citing Acts 15:7 the NIDNTT reads:
The barrier is now broken down; salvation has become universal (1:541, Elect, L. Coenen).
5. I see you ignored the use of katharizw in Acts 15:9. Why didn't you even respond to this? Instead of even "scant" evidence you provided zero evidence.
6. In 1 John 4:13 "of the Holy Spirit" refers to the the Holy Spirit Himself.
a. NIDNTT: And in the Johannine writings as elsewhere the Spirit is also detectable by the effects of his coming (Jn. 3:8), so much so that the immediacy of the Spirit’s indwelling is one of the tests of life in 1 Jn. (3:24; 4:13) (3:703, Spirit, J.D.G. Dunn).
b. TDNT: In 1 Jn. pneuma is first used along primitive Christian lines for the distinguishing mark of the great turning-point. The new thing made known thereby, however, is no longer just the eschaton which has now come; it is the abiding of Christ in believers, 3:24; 4:13 (6:448, pneuma, Schweizer).
c. In Matthew 25:8 it reads "of your oil". It is the oil itself they want.
7. The fact that these Gentiles were baptized with the Holy Spirit before their water baptism (Acts 11:16) demonstrates they were saved before they were water baptized.
a. Colossians 2:12 - having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
1. All who have undergone this baptism have at the same time experienced the “circumcision of Christ” (Colossians 2:11). The “true circumcision” (i.e., Christians) “worship in the Spirit” (Philippians 3:3). Since the Gentiles (Acts 10) possessed the Holy Spirit and were worshiping in the Spirit (Acts 10:46) means they were the “true circumcision”/Christians that Colossians 2:11 speaks of which is based upon their baptism with the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:16).
2. NIDNTT: When later in Caesarea the first pagans received the Holy Spirit and became members of the church, they also shared in the grace of worshipping and praising God "in other tongues", as again later the disciples of John the Baptist who became believers in Ephesus (Acts 10:46; 19:6) (3:1080, Word, Haarbeck).
3. NIDNTT: The already established link between Pentecost, covenant renewal and the giving of the law probably prompted the first believers to interpret their experience of Spirit as the fulfillment of the promise of a new covenant, as the law written in their hearts (Deut. 30:6; Jer. 31:31-4; Ezek. 36:26 f.; 37:14; cf. Acts 2:38 f.; 3:25; 1 Cor. 11:25; Heb. 10:15 f., 29). But the implications of this insight for continuing faith and conduct were not recognized and elaborated until Paul (Rom. 2:28 f.; 7:6; 2 Cor. 3; Gal. 3:1-4:7; Phil. 3:3; Col. 2:11; 1 Thess. 4:8) (2:786, Pentecost, J.D.G. Dunn).
8. Finally, in citing Acts 11:15f. and 15:8 the NIDNTT reads: "Consequently at critical or problematic moments of the early mission thereafter what was looked for above all else was the reception or possession of the Spirit…" (3:699, Spirit, Dunn). Indeed, every time a dispute arose in Acts about the conversion of these Gentiles Peter always appealed to their reception of the Holy Spirit and never to their water baptism because “the receiving of the Spirit is the decisive thing, not baptism...” (6:623, TDNT, Iordanes, Rengstorf).
Last edited by One Bad Pig; February 8th 2013 at 05:19 PM. Reason: added citation
March 2nd 2013, 10:36 PM #5
Re: The Gentiles (Acts 10) were saved before their water bap
I think it is important to point out that the Old Testament spoke about the coming of the Holy Spirit as a future event to those of the redeemed community of God.
a. Until the Spirit is poured out upon us from on high, And the wilderness becomes a fertile field, And the fertile field is considered as a forest (Isaiah 32:15, NASB).
b. For I will pour out water on the thirsty land And streams on the dry ground; I will pour out My Spirit on your offspring And My blessing on your descendants (Isaiah 44:3, NASB)
a. And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 11:19, NASB)
b. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances (Ezekiel 36:25-27, NASB)
c. "I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I will have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel," declares the Lord GOD (Ezekiel 39:29, NASB).
a. It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions. Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those day (Joel 2:28, 29, NASB)
a. I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn (Zechariah 12:10, NASB).
1. NIDNTT: One special use is the promise that God will pour out his Spirit on men (Joel 2:28-29 [MT 3:1-2]; Ezek. 39:29; Zech. 12:10; cf. Isa. 32:15 (2:854, Pour, R.T. France).
2. NIDNTT: Through the process of judgment and salvation, God heals his people’s idolatry and backsliding (Hos. 4:12: cf. Isa. 29:14), giving a new spirit of godliness, not only to the nation at large (Ezek. 11:19 f.; 18:31; 36:26 f.; 39:29), but also to the individual (Ps. 51:10). Ezekiel declares this to be nothing less than Israel’s resurrection from the dead – his death having been caused by unbelief (Ezek. 37:1-14, a vision which, as the whole prophecy indicates, refers to the restoration of God’s people as a whole and not to the personal revival of individuals within the nation). The later chapters of Isaiah proclaim the same message: the Servant of the Lord extends the blessings of his rule (already described in ch. 11) to include the Gentiles (42:1-4; 49:1-6), the covenant promise being fulfilled in God’s irrevocable gift of his Spirit (59:21; cf. Joel 2:28 f.). Similarly in the past, the period of salvation at the exodus had been marked by the gift of the Spirit to Moses; indeed that whole national deliverance had taken place in the power of the Spirit (Isa. 63:11-14). The post-exilic prophets see this promise fulfilled in the re-establishment of Israel in Jerusalem (Hag. 2:5: the spirit in the midst of the people gives protection; Zech. 4:6: salvation comes not from any army nor from any human power, but from the Spirit of God). In this prophecy God’s almighty, all-pervasive but intangible Spirit is linked with the covenant, for the latter reveals God not only working for the salvation of his people but bringing their lives into active conformity with his holy will, despite their hostility towards him (3:692, Spirit, J.D.G. Dunn).
3. NIDNTT: For the final future of their nation the prophets hoped for an eschatological sprinkling with God's purifying water which would cleanse both land and people, set idolatry aside and put a new Spirit in their hearts (Isa. 44:3; Ezek. 36:25ff.; Zech 13:1f.). Here water has become a picture for the Spirit of Yahweh who brings cleansing and eradicates wickedness (3:989, Water, O. Bocher).
4. Mounce: He removes the rebellious heart and replaces it with one that responds in true obedience to God (Ezek. 11:19; 36:26-27). The "Spirit" is the "breath" that brings life to the dead (regeneration), as pictured in Ezekiel’s valley of dry bones (Ezek. 37)...The OT stress laid in Isaiah's promise of a Messiah who would have a special endowment of the Spirit (Isa. 61:1-3) and on Joel's prophecy about the pouring out of the Spirit on the godly in the last days (Joel 2:28-29)...Just as John baptized with water, the one coming after him would baptize with the Holy Spirit (Mt. 3:11, 16). Such imagery describes the type of "Spirit baptism" the believer receives - a baptism of the Spirit prophesied in the OT and fulfilled in the ministry of Jesus (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Spirit, page 675).
5. TDNT: In Ezekiel the Spirit of God becomes a possession of the community in the Messianic future (36:26 f.) (1:103, hagios, Procksch).
6. TDNT: In Is. 32:15 there is a promise of salvation which is related to the coming of the Spirit (2:667, erxomai, Schneider).
7. TDNT: Ez. promises that the people will keep the judgments of Yahweh because the Lord will put His Spirit in their hearts and will Himself see to the observance of the commandments (Ez. 36:27; cf. 37:24) (3:931-932, krinw, Herntrich).
8. TDNT: The perfecting of Israel is through God’s Spirit, through whom a heart of stone is changed into a heart of flesh and the people is transformed thereby into a community fixed on God, Ez. 36:26f. (6:365, pneuma, Schweizer).
Footnote #162: Cf. also Is. 4:2 ff.; 44:3; Zech. 12:10
9. TDNT: In the future age of salvation the Spirit will bring animals together, Is. 34:16. God will lay His new Spirit on the whole of the elect people, pneuma kainon Is. 44:3; Ez. 11:19; 36:26. He will pour out His Spirit (ekchew Jl. 2:28) and give the spirit of grace and pity (Zech. 12:10). The eschatological Spirit will come down from on high as a possession of the community (Is. 32:15) and like a personified power stand in the midst of the renewed temple community, Hag. 2:5 (6:370, pneuma, Schweizer).
10. TDNT: In the last time God will give the pneuma as resurrection power to bring the people of Israel to life again, Ez. 37:6, 14 (6:369, pneuma, Schweizer).
11. TDNT: In an obvious figure of speech Ez. 36:25 speaks of God's eschatological action: "I will sprinkle pure water on you that ye may be clean." Like the resoration of Israel (v. 24), the gift of a new heart of flesh (v. 26) and the gift of the Spirit (v. 27), God's cleansing sprinkling is an act of eschatological re-creation of the people of God (6:980, rantizw, Hunzinger).
12. NIDOTTE: In a more profound sense, Ezekiel predicts that Yahweh will give his people a "new heart" and a "new spirit," that they might obey his law (Ezek 11:19, 20; 18:31; 36:26-27) (3:1075, ruah, Van Pelt/Kaiser/Block)
13. NIDOTTE: Finally, in the prophets' eschatological visions they foresee a time when God will pour out his Holy Spirit on his people in unprecedented fashion. This liquid imagery occurs four times, always in the context of Israel’s restoration and covenant renewal (Isa 32:15; 44:3-4; Ezek 39:29; Joel 2:28 …the pouring out of God’s Spirit represents the definitive act whereby the Lord claims and seals the restored Israel as his own covenant people (3:1077, ruah, Van Pelt/Kaiser/Block).
14. Duane Garrett: The prophets often associated the Spirit with the eschatological era, but they did not always do it in precisely the same manner as did Joel. As H.W. Wolff points out, Ezekiel promised that in the age to come God would by his Spirit enable people to obey God from the heart (Ezek 36:26-27). Isaiah foretold a day when God would pour out his Spirit in order to create a new community and a new people of God (32:14-18; 44:3-5). In Joel, by contrast, the gift of the Spirit is prophetic. It enables people to prophesy, to experience revelatory dreams, and to see visions. These different aspects of the eschatological outpouring of the Spirit do not contradict but complement each other. The gift of the Spirit connotes direct experience with God, as in Joel, as well as the grace that enables his people to love God from the heart, as in Ezekiel. It also is the distinctive sign and mark of membership in the new people of God, as in Isaiah. In short, the coming age would be an age marked by the presence of the Spirit (contrast 1 Sam 3:1)...The major characteristic of the outpouring of the Spirit is its universality. All the people of God receive the Spirit. The text specifically erases the major social distinctions of the ancient world: gender, age, and economic status. In an era which men (not women), the old (not the young), and the landowners (not slaves) ruled society, Joel explicitly rejected all such distinctions as criteria for receiving the Holy Spirit. For Paul the fulfillment of this text is that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, neither male nor female, and neither slave nor free (Gal 3:28).
In this text, however, the Spirit is universal in that he is given to all Israel (cf. Ezek 39:29; Zech 12:10) rather than to all humanity (note "your sons and daughters...your old men...your young men"). This does not mean, however, that Joel altogether excluded the Gentiles from participation in the kingdom of God. Rather, speaking to his own dispirited generation, he emphasized that Israel and not some other nation would have this great proof that God is among them. From the biblical perspective the Gentiles' reception of the Spirit does not mean that God is no longer the God of Israel but that Gentiles have submitted to Israel's God. In summary, for Joel the gift of the Spirit to Israel was vindication of their status as the people of God as well as the source of their power to reconstitute as a community of obedience under God's favor. The surprising turn of events in the New Testament (Acts 10:45) has not invalidated that vision but has extended it (The New American Commentary, Hosea, Joel, Duane A. Garret, pages 368-369).
Notice this last citation makes reference to Acts 10:45. The reception of the Holy Spirit as described here demonstrates that Cornelius and the Gentiles with him were already saved before they were water baptized. To deny this is to deny the obvious.
March 12th 2013, 06:45 AM #6
Re: The Gentiles (Acts 10) were saved before their water bap
Some have resorted to the argument that Cornelius was already saved before Peter met him. I'm not sure if martinez will do the same but I think the notion by some that Cornelius was already saved before Peter met him needs to be refuted.
a. If one insists that Cornelius was already in a saved condition based on the fact that he is called devout (eusebes) in Acts 10:2 they would also have to hold that the "devout" (sebw) persons Paul disputed with were also in a saved condition in Acts 17:17.
b. If one insists that Cornelius was already in a saved condition based on the fact that he "feared God" (Acts 10:2) then one must also affirm that those who "feared God" (Acts 13:16) were also in a saved condition before Paul preached the gospel to them.
c. In Acts 10:2 Cornelius is said to have "prayed to God continually". Paul was praying (Acts 9:11) but he wasn't saved until afterwards (Acts 22:16).
d. In Acts 10:22 Luke records that these men called Cornelius "just". He did not mean in the sense of already saved (see "f" and the rest following) but in the sense of "upright conduct and a sense of responsibility to God" (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, Danker, dikaios, page 246). When Danker specifically cites Acts 10:22 it reads "with phoboumenos ton Theon of Cornelius". And simply being a Godfearer does not necessitate that one is saved (Acts 13:16).
e. Acts 10:35 - "Accepted" can simply mean "welcomed" (NASB). W.E. Vine writes that dektos "denotes a person or thing who has been regarded favorably" (Luke 4:19, 24; Acts 10:35; 2 Corinthians 6:2) (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Accept, page 12).
1. TDNT: good works done by non-Christians are recognised by God: 10:35. This ergazesthai dikaiosunen is not, of course, regarded as a sufficient way of salvation; cf. 10:43: aphesis hamartiwn (2:199, dikaiosune, Schrenk).
f. In Acts 10:43 Peter mentions "forgiveness". These Gentiles were in need of the forgiveness of their sins/salvation.
Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins (Acts 10:43, NASB)
1. Danker: "the act of freeing from an obligation, guilt or punishment, pardon, cancellation" he then cites (among others) Matthew 26:28; Acts 2:38; Acts 10:43 and Acts 26:18 (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, aphesis, page 155).
2. NIDNTT: The salvation given to the one who believes consists in the forgiveness of sins (Acts 10:43; cf. 26:18) and a new relationship with God (3:213, Redemption, C. Brown).
3. Thayer: "forgiveness, pardon, of sins...remission of their penalty" he then cites (among others) Acts 2:38; 10:43 and 26:18 (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, aphesis, page 88).
--> The "forgiveness" mentioned in Acts 2:38 and Acts 26:18 refer to salvation. That is from an unsaved state to a saved one. The same would apply to Acts 10:43.
g. Acts 11:14 reads: and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household (Acts 11:14, NASB).
Concerning the word "saved" in Acts 11:14:
1. Danker: be saved, attain salvation (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, swzw, page 983).
2. TDNT: ...swzw and swteria are general terms for Christian salvation, 4:12; 11:14; 13:26; 16:17, 30f.; the quotation in 13:47, cf. on this R.11:11. Again and again in Ac the content of swteria is the forgiveness of sins, 3:19, 26; 5:31; 10:43; 13:38; 22:16; 26:18 (7:997, swzw, Foerster).
h. If one were to still insist that based on the noble qualities of Cornelius he was already saved before Peter met him and that this event can not be used to prove salvation took place when he received the Holy Spirit before his water baptism one must also demonstrate that all those with him (relatives and close friends, cf. Acts 10:24) also shared these same noble qualities. That is something they can not do.
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