Is everything part of God's plan?

[One Bad Pig]

I think some Calvinists do hold that literally everything is foreordained and that we have literally no free will. I suspect that this is based on a misunderstanding of one's own theology. A number of Arminians equate this with Calvinism but it does not seem to be an accurate criticism.

Thus the distinction I made between Calvinists and hyper-Calvinists.

[RBerman]

Calvinists hold that we cannot choose to follow Christ, yes? That's kind of important, as following or not following Christ is determinative of our eternal situation. It's nice that we can choose to do good deeds and store up rewards in heaven, but those rewards are just gravy compared to getting there in the first place.

More precision is required to describe the situation, since "cannot" can mean more than one thing. We will not choose to follow God, because our hearts are set against Him, until God's Spirit frees us from our bondage to sin, so that we see him as lovely and freely choose to trust and obey Christ. Good rewards stored up in heaven don't help much if you're not going to heaven in the first place.

[One Bad Pig]

More precision is required to describe the situation, since "cannot" can mean more than one thing. We will not choose to follow God, because our hearts are set against Him, until God's Spirit frees us from our bondage to sin, so that we see him as lovely and freely choose to trust and obey Christ.

IOW, we cannot follow God until God's Spirit frees us from our bondage to sin. As far as I know, Calvinists believe that God chooses to set some free from bondage to sin (limited atonement). I was also under the impression that Calvinists believe that God's grace is irresistible, so everyone God's Spirit frees from bondage to sin will always "choose" to trust and obey Christ. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[The Remonstrant]

IOW, we cannot follow God until God's Spirit frees us from our bondage to sin. As far as I know, Calvinists believe that God chooses to set some free from bondage to sin (limited atonement). I was also under the impression that Calvinists believe that God's grace is irresistible, so everyone God's Spirit frees from bondage to sin will always "choose" to trust and obey Christ. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Strict (or high) Calvinists believe in God's eternal, exhaustive decree whereby God has foreordained all things prior to creation. The decree of election to salvation and the decree of reprobation are both unconditional in nature. Libertarian freedom is foreign to genuine Reformed-Calvinistic thought. According to Calvinism God does not desire the salvation of all persons without exception. Nothing you or I do ever falls outside the decretive will of God. The Father did not send the Son in order to die for all persons without exception (contra universal atonement). Rather, Christ was sent by the Father with the specific intent of securing the redemption of a prechosen group of persons ordained to inherit salvation by a peremptory decree. God will not bestow the necessary gifts of repentance and faith on the reprobate/non-elect. Still all persons are called to repent and believe in the Good News of the Kingdom of God and the Lord Jesus Christ, but only the elect (i.e., the unconditionally prechosen) are enabled to effectually respond to the Gospel call. Regeneration precedes faith.

While the reprobate do not desire to genuinely turn from sin or to cling to Christ, the Son was never sent to be the Savior of the non-elect in the first place (at least in any reasonable sense of the term). Even if the non-elect were to savingly believe in the Gospel message (an impossibility in Calvinian thought), they could never appropriate the benefits of Jesus' sacrifice because Christ never died as a sin offering for the reprobate (limited or "definite" atonement). While God may lavish temporal gifts and grant times of relative peace and prosperity to the elect and the non-elect alike ("common grace"), God does not ultimately intend the salvation of the lost in Calvinism. The necessary grace required for conversion is divinely withheld from the reprobate (special or "irresistible grace"). The non-elect reject the Father and the Son for the simple reason that God rejected them before the foundation of the world according to his good pleasure. In Calvinist thought the following two propositions are equally true:

1. The non-elect do not desire to repent and believe in Jesus Christ for salvation ("total depravity").
2. The non-elect cannot repent and believe in Jesus Christ for salvation ("total inability").

(In short, you're on the right track, OBP.)

[Christianbookworm]

Did He foreordain this?

[The Remonstrant]

Did He foreordain this?

In strict/high Calvinist thought? Yes.

[Christianbookworm]

In strict/high Calvinist thought? Yes.

Wait a sec... Does that mean that they would think God wanted me to put the smilie?

[The Remonstrant]

Wait a sec... Does that mean that they would think God wanted me to put the smilie?

According to his all-encompassing eternal decretive will, yes.

[Christianbookworm]

What about all those mean fundie atheists? Why would He decree that they be so mean to Him?

[The Remonstrant]

What about all those mean fundie atheists? Why would He decree that they be so mean to Him?

I would prefer not to answer. I'm an Arminian.

[Christianbookworm]

Don't know what I am. More of the only God knows exaclty how all that works!

[RBerman]

What about all those mean fundie atheists? Why would He decree that they be so mean to Him?

Who knows? I don't even know why I do all the things I do, so I wouldn't presume to speak for God.

[RBerman]

IOW, we cannot follow God until God's Spirit frees us from our bondage to sin. As far as I know, Calvinists believe that God chooses to set some free from bondage to sin (limited atonement). I was also under the impression that Calvinists believe that God's grace is irresistible, so everyone God's Spirit frees from bondage to sin will always "choose" to trust and obey Christ. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't know how applicable "cannot" is to the situation of not wanting to do something. You are correct that when God changes our hearts, we change from not wanting to trust Christ, to wanting to trust Christ. In each case we do what we want to do.

[The Remonstrant]

I think some Calvinists do hold that literally everything is foreordained and that we have literally no free will. I suspect that this is based on a misunderstanding of one's own theology. A number of Arminians equate this with Calvinism but it does not seem to be an accurate criticism.

God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; . . .¹

Were the authors of the Westminster Confession of Faith merely misinformed Calvinists? Clearly they maintained exhaustive divine determinism. Perhaps Arminius and Episcopius were mistaken about Calvinism as well(?). Not likely.


Note

¹ Westminster Confession of Faith, "Of God's Eternal Decree", ch. 3, article 1

• http://www.reformed.org/documents/wc...fs/ch_III.html

[Scrawly]

That wouldn't surprise me, coming from the person who has said that 'Arminians are barely Christian' if at all -- and that Christ didn't experience death, but only his human body did --

(in fact, I think I know what you may be referring to....I think he did say something like that...)

RC Sproul, like John MacArthur, is one who

1) doesn't seem okay with 'gray areas' (areas not explicitly clear in the Bible -- or to human reasoning)
2) is not open to the possibility of other's thoughts even possibly being right (even slightly)

and therefore seems apt to make broad generalizations appear as fact, and often oversteps the bounds of orthodoxy & Christian charity in the name of 'truth' and 'having the correct answer' on everything.



But then again...perhaps I am the only one who sees it that way...?

Well said, I completely agree. I often get somewhat depressed and my cult-senses start tingling whenever I listen to teachers such as these. It seems these men are relevant to a small segment of white America that proliferates and survives within sort of a bubble. The seeming obsession with minor doctrinal issues borders on outlandish and only pushes these men and their flock further and further into obscurity.