Originally posted by phat8594
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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
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Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Is everything part of God's plan?
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Originally posted by phat8594 View PostThe only 'hook' He would be on is the 'hook' of creating free creatures who had the ability to sin. But with LFW, it was the person who ultimately determines the choice -- not God. So if that is the case, I am lost at how God is responsible for a choice not ultimately determined by Him?
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Originally posted by RBerman View PostSince I do not want to derail your thread, I am uncertain as to whether I should respond to the three paragraphs in your post that followed the one I quote here.
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Originally posted by Joel View PostGo ahead and respond. I did at least mention the problem of evil in my OP and I am curious what your response would be. And nobody so far seems interested in arguing that God does plan everything.
Originally posted by Joel View PostBut there are possible answers to such objections for the Molinist. There might have been no situations in which the man chooses to become a Christian. Or if there were, it may be that no possible world has all people choosing to to be saved (similar to Plantinga's "transworld depravity" argument). That is, given the set of all people who have some situation in which they would choose to become a Christian, it might not be possible to instantiate a world in which all of those situations occur. These are possibilities for Molinism, but not for those who suppose that God controls what people choose.
Not to mention that God didn't have to save anyone. Even if God didn't save anyone, that doesn't make him responsible for human evil. Men chose to do evil. If the man hadn't already chosen to do evil, he would have no need of salvation. And God may justly punish the man. And, as Phat points out, whatever situation God puts a person in, it's still the person's free choice, and not God's. God may prefer that the person in that situation would choose otherwise than the person does. In which case God would likely have chosen to instantiate a different, better world. Then the reason why that better world is not possible is the man's free choice, not God's choice.
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Originally posted by RBerman View PostOriginally posted by Joelnobody so far seems interested in arguing that God does plan everything.
I detect a lot of "may" and "might" in your answers.
An appeal to "that is impossible for God" seems suspect as well, unless clearly shown to be impossible for reasons of contradicting definitions, e.g. "married bachelor" or "square circle." For instance, it would clearly be impossible for God to create a universe in which everyone chooses to be saved while still creating a universe in which at least some people are objects of God's wrath. But that involves a sort of supralapsarianism from which Molinists usually shy away. Other than that, you seem to be stuck with a guess that certain combinations of human choices must be definitionally impossible for reasons obscure to us.
One person's life, for example, includes a sequence of choices in a definite order. Each choice affects/constrains future situations in which the person will choose. So if God chooses to put the person into a situation S, that constrains the choice of future situations in which to put the person.
Likewise with interaction between humans. One person's actions can affect/constrain a second person's situation(s). It's a massive interconnected web.
So creating an integrated world using middle knowledge would be a giant constraint-satisfaction problem, to which not every possible set of situations is a solution.
You might object that God can act in the world too, to bring about any of the situations. For example, if the person P in situation S chooses to commit suicide, then in the ordinary course of things that eliminates lots of possible future situations in which P might make choices. But you might say that God could intervene to bring P back to life (for example) so that P can be placed in a future situation. But situations include the person's memory and understanding and so on. If God frequently acts in such ways then his and others' memories will be different and thus be in different situations and thus may make different choices. Also their understandings about the world (such as laws of physics and the world being orderly--generally following constant rules) would be different and thus be in different situations. So this too would constrain the possible sets of situations.
As I said, I am not convinced by this line of thought, which involves a highly speculative appeal to hypothetical universes which we can confirm through neither observation of nature nor exegesis of Scripture. But even if correct, you are saying that God still felt it "better" to instantiate that universe than another, so God's concept of "better" (and thus God's nature) is still at the root of why the universe chosen for instantiation is the one in which that person rejected God instead of accepting God. The defense you suggests seems the moral equivalent of the observation that you cannot make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. It's still a version of, "God has decided to create a universe in which your choices lead you to Hell," which is exactly the view that non-Calvinists allegedly abhor.
I think the main non-Calvinist objection is to God causing people to do evil (thus seemingly doing evil Himself). (And then perhaps lesser questions raised like: If God causes/decides everyone's choices why didn't God cause everyone to do only good and never evil? Why not make the omelet without breaking any eggs if there is no such constraint?)
But besides all that, do you not agree that it is not the offer of salvation (or its rejection) that causes the person to go to Hell? The person was already justly going to Hell prior to any offer of salvation. Otherwise what's the point of salvation?
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Originally posted by Joel View PostSure. Similar to Plantinga's "transworld depravity" argument, the point is not to prove that that is the case, but to point out a possibility thus proving that there exists a counter-example to the argument from evil. It doesn't preclude their being other counter-examples (any one of which might be actual).
The reasons aren't obscure. My point is that each situation-and-choice is not selected in isolation, independent from the others. They have definite relationships (e.g. causal, temporal, spatial) to each other, part of a unified space-time continuum. One person's life, for example, includes a sequence of choices in a definite order. Each choice affects/constrains future situations in which the person will choose. So if God chooses to put the person into a situation S, that constrains the choice of future situations in which to put the person. Likewise with interaction between humans. One person's actions can affect/constrain a second person's situation(s). It's a massive interconnected web. So creating an integrated world using middle knowledge would be a giant constraint-satisfaction problem, to which not every possible set of situations is a solution.
You might object that God can act in the world too, to bring about any of the situations. For example, if the person P in situation S chooses to commit suicide, then in the ordinary course of things that eliminates lots of possible future situations in which P might make choices. But you might say that God could intervene to bring P back to life (for example) so that P can be placed in a future situation. But situations include the person's memory and understanding and so on. If God frequently acts in such ways then his and others' memories will be different and thus be in different situations and thus may make different choices. Also their understandings about the world (such as laws of physics and the world being orderly--generally following constant rules) would be different and thus be in different situations. So this too would constrain the possible sets of situations.
That's not what non-Calvinists abhor. Even open theists agree that God created a world in which there exists some humans He created whose choices will lead them to Hell.
I think the main non-Calvinist objection is to God causing people to do evil (thus seemingly doing evil Himself). (And then perhaps lesser questions raised like: If God causes/decides everyone's choices why didn't God cause everyone to do only good and never evil? Why not make the omelet without breaking any eggs if there is no such constraint?)
But besides all that, do you not agree that it is not the offer of salvation (or its rejection) that causes the person to go to Hell? The person was already justly going to Hell prior to any offer of salvation. Otherwise what's the point of salvation?
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Originally posted by Zymologist View PostFWIW, I'm pretty sure that RC Sproul Jr. has stated that [God is the author of sin], or something very similar.
Edited to add: It looks like phat beat me to the punch.Last edited by The Remonstrant; 04-10-2014, 02:14 AM.For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>
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Originally posted by RBerman View PostThose sound like reasons that getting "the world He intends" would be very complicated for God, but no one disputes that God can do things that are complicated beyond our comprehension. It just doesn't seem Christian to say, "The world we have is the best one God could come up with under the circumstances; sorry."
If it's the best one God could come up with, then it's the best one possible. And the reason it isn't better than it is, is not because any lack of capability in God, but because creatures chose to to evil. (Also implying that the world would have been better if creatures had used their freedom to make better choices.) It's all very common sense.
But Molinism's stated reason (God desires humans to have LFW more than he desires for humans to obey him or to avoid Hell) strikes me as entirely without biblical basis. That is the part of this discussion that I would suspect didn't come up constantly in eras past.
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Originally posted by Joel View PostWhat [Molinism is] saying is that: If it's the best one God could come up with, then it's the best one possible. And the reason it isn't better than it is, is not because any lack of capability in God, but because creatures chose to to evil. (Also implying that the world would have been better if creatures had used their freedom to make better choices.) It's all very common sense.
As I said, the real/main objection is to God causing people to do evil (thus seemingly doing evil Himself).
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Originally posted by RBerman View PostAccording to Molinism, creatures chose the evils that they chose because God decided to instantiate the particular world in which they used LFW to choose those evils.
And, as you say, there's a bias that a world in which people have LFW is better than one in which they don't, although I can't think how Scripture could be used to support that particular claim.
Depends on what you mean by "God causing people to do evil." But there's no shortage of Bible passages which raise problems along those lines: God hardening Pharaoh's heart; God sending raiders to steal Job's herds (At least, Job attributes it to God, and the frame story in Job 1 seems to make God a passive accomplice of Satan); God inciting David to take an evil census; God telling Habakkuk that the evil Assyrians are being sent to punish Israel and then be punished themselves; and so on. I appreciate the desire to affirm God's goodness and holiness, but we need to be careful not to construct a model of what that entails, which doesn't leave room for the things the Bible shows God actually doing.
The others that you list seem less troublesome. There is a difference between causing and not preventing. In every translation I look at, it says Satan incited David to number Israel. And Habakkuk seems consistent with God using the Assyrians' bad choices.
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Originally posted by Joel View PostI don't think that's a sufficient "because" for Molinism, in which creatures chose the evil that they chose because that is what they freely chose in that situation that they were in. If they had chosen differently, God could not have instantiated this particular world (according to Molinism).
The case of Pharaoh is a tricky one, and I'll have to give it more thought (e.g., did God cause the Israelites to remain in slavery longer than they would have? and why or why not is that evil on God's part?). It seems that there are difficult questions in any theology. The others that you list seem less troublesome. There is a difference between causing and not preventing. In every translation I look at, it says Satan incited David to number Israel. And Habakkuk seems consistent with God using the Assyrians' bad choices.
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Originally posted by RBerman View PostWell, only this world contains exactly this set of choices, so if God had instantiated a different world, it would have contained a different set of choices. However, God's choosing to instantiate this world necessarily entails all the particular choices made in it, yes? What does that do to your idea of LFW, which as I understand it claims that necessary events are not free?
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Originally posted by Joel View PostThe choices (Molinists might say "the content of Middle Knowledge") are not necessary truths, but contingent--upon LFW choices by creatures. The resulting world is then contingent both upon God's choice of what situation to put the creature into and the creature's choice of what to do in that situation. It is misleading to phrase it as if the Molinist thinks that the result is contingent only upon God's choice.
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Originally posted by RBerman View PostAre you saying that when God puts the man into the situation, He had some degree of uncertainty as to what choice will ensue? That sounds more like Open Theism than Molinism as I understand it.
And my understanding is that Open Theism has more to it than supposing the order is the other way around (choice not prior to the actual situation). It supposes that God did not create time but experiences the passage of time.
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Originally posted by Joel View PostMy understanding is that in Molinism God, in some sense, has the creature make its choice(s) first, prior to God's instantiating/actualizing the situation.Last edited by RBerman; 04-14-2014, 12:20 PM.
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