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Liberals need to stop messing with the First Amendment

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  • Liberals need to stop messing with the First Amendment

    Liberals need to stop messing with the First Amendment

    1060x600-3de990462c01c378f678478e5b453438.jpg

    Two Chinese tourists were arrested last Sunday after taking photos of each other giving the Nazi salute in front of the Reichstag building in Berlin. Unlike in the United States, certain types of speech are illegal in Germany, including almost any Nazi symbolism.

    Supposed comedian Chelsea Handler, weighed in on the story, suggesting the U.S. be more like Germany, which would require eliminating the First Amendment.

    Most people in a civilized society agree that Nazi salutes are offensive, even if given in jest. Labeling speech that we all agree to be wrong as "hate speech" and then banning it by law might seem like a simple solution to the problem of occasionally hearing things that decent people don't like. However, passing laws to weaken our own rights in response to somebody else's poor behavior is not the solution...
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

  • #2
    I like how after a group of radical MAGA's hold a violent demonstration, the liberals are still the problem right now in your head.

    When do you ever call out on your own side?

    Comment


    • #3
      As I have explained before, I think the speech that needs to be protected in a democracy is anti-government speech.

      But the state has a duty to protect its citizens from harming one another (murdering, stealing etc), and that includes harmful speech: sexual harassment, inciting violence/terrorism, and slander, are illegal for that reason. Hate speech falls into this category, of speech that is harmful to other citizens, and IMO the state has its normal protective duty with regard to such speech.

      I think the US is doing itself a disservice in recent decades by moving towards an overly-expansive interpretation of the first amendment free-speech rights that interprets the first amendment as not merely defending the first category of anti-government speech, but also allowing the second category of citizens harming one another with speech (and the courts have also gone too far in creatively interpreting money and actions as 'speech', e.g. their view that bribery is protected by 'free speech', if they continue down this path then eventually all laws will be unconstitutional because of 'free speech').

      The psychological and physical damage that nasty speech against minority groups does to them has been increasingly recognized, and most Western democracies have moved to outlaw hate-speech for that reason to protect their citizens. Especially in Germany, with its unfortunate history of the Holocaust, and the deaths of millions of people as a result of persecution, they have seen how harmful nasty rhetoric can become.

      I don't really agree with punishing tourists posing for a photo who are just joking around though - unless they have evidence that these particular tourists really meant it in a malicious way (i.e. were truly endorsing Nazi principles of hatred of others) rather than just as a photo joke.
      Last edited by Starlight; 08-13-2017, 07:37 PM.
      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
        I like how after a group of radical MAGA's hold a violent demonstration, the liberals are still the problem right now in your head.
        So, in your head, this is a response to THAT?

        When do you ever call out on your own side?
        A) Who is "my own side"
        2) For what do I need to call them out?

        Or, are you just being a jerk.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #5
          Unpopular opinion but I don't think many people actually truly support the First Amendment as written. By allowing exceptions like fire in a crowded theater, slander, threats, etc., that's already admitting that freedom of speech is not absolute, but the way the First Amendment is written doesn't leave room for any exceptions at all.

          For practical reasons, though, I'm fine with the way it's generally interpreted.
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            As I have explained before, I think the speech that needs to be protected in a democracy is anti-government speech.
            Star, by saying "the speech", you're making it sound like this is the only speech that needs protected. I'm sure that's not your intention.

            But the state has a duty to protect its citizens from harming one another (murdering, stealing etc),
            Good so far, but you're about to drive into the ditch....

            and that includes harmful speech: sexual harassment, inciting violence/terrorism, and slander, are illegal for that reason. Hate speech falls into this category, of speech that is harmful to other citizens, and IMO the state has its normal protective duty with regard to such speech.
            So, who's to determine what's harmful? And, you supposedly support anti-government speech, but isn't the government the entity that would enforce your nannystate control?

            The psychological and physical damage that nasty speech against minority groups does to them has been increasingly recognized, and most Western democracies have moved to outlaw hate-speech for that reason to protect their citizens. Especially in Germany, with its unfortunate history of the Holocaust, and the deaths of millions of people as a result of persecution, they have seen how harmful nasty rhetoric can become.
            The American experience is, indeed, unique. I really don't care to see us throwing people in jail for saying stupid things.

            I don't really agree with punishing tourists posing for a photo who are just joking around though - unless they have evidence that these particular tourists really meant it in a malicious way (i.e. were truly endorsing Nazi principles of hatred of others) rather than just as a photo joke.
            So, you'd need a whole new court system to determine what's "hurtful" and what's "joking"?

            You are so incredibly irrational.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              So, in your head, this is a response to THAT?



              A) Who is "my own side"
              2) For what do I need to call them out?

              Or, are you just being a jerk.
              Oh please.

              Like you don't know the answers to your questions, or what you ought to be doing.

              Comment


              • #8
                I'll defend CP on this one. He's made pretty clear he isn't a MAGA'er or a white supremacist sympathizer.
                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
                  I like how after a group of radical MAGA's hold a violent demonstration, the liberals are still the problem right now in your head.

                  When do you ever call out on your own side?
                  They didn't hold a violent demonstration, they held a peaceful demonstration that turned violent when leftists showed up and attacked them. There's a reason why leftist demosntrations are largely uneventful (unless you start fighting each other) while it's impossible even for mild mannered center-right conservatives like charles murray to hold a speech without being physically assaulted.
                  "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                  There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    So, in your head, this is a response to THAT?
                    1. Nazis hold violent rally that leads to a death
                    2. The next day CP posts a thread saying liberals are the real problem not Nazis.
                    3. Anyone who sees any kind of link between those is a jerk and imagining things.
                    #CowPokeLogic

                    I think your real mistake SoR is imagining that CP has any sort of thing going on in his head to begin with. He's not in touch with reality enough to be able to respond to things that happen in the world.
                    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                      Unpopular opinion but I don't think many people actually truly support the First Amendment as written. By allowing exceptions like fire in a crowded theater, slander, threats, etc., that's already admitting that freedom of speech is not absolute, but the way the First Amendment is written doesn't leave room for any exceptions at all.
                      I think that's generally accepted, yes - the classic example being, as you pointed out, yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater. But that's one of the cases that is so obvious that "no reasonable person" would honestly defend that "right".

                      For practical reasons, though, I'm fine with the way it's generally interpreted.
                      The only thing I'd modify would be... I'm fine with the way it's generally BEEN interpreted.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        To be fair (though it doesn't justify shouting him down or anything), Charles Murray isn't protested on the basis of being a conservative (he's not even very conservative at all politically).
                        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          I think that's generally accepted, yes - the classic example being, as you pointed out, yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater. But that's one of the cases that is so obvious that "no reasonable person" would honestly defend that "right".



                          The only thing I'd modify would be... I'm fine with the way it's generally BEEN interpreted.
                          There's a famous libertarian book called "Defending the Indefensible" that defends all of them - fire in a crowded theater, slander, threats, blackmail, you name it. But you did say "no reasonable person"...
                          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                            1. Nazis hold violent rally that leads to a death
                            I haven't been around the news much the last few days, Star.

                            2. The next day CP posts a thread saying liberals are the real problem not Nazis.
                            As I said, I wasn't aware of whatever it was you were talking about.

                            3. Anyone who sees any kind of link between those is a jerk and imagining things.
                            #CowPokeLogic
                            My thread has nothing to do with what you're talking about.

                            I think your real mistake SoR is imagining that CP has any sort of thing going on in his head to begin with. He's not in touch with reality enough to be able to respond to things that happen in the world.
                            No, SoR's mistake, and you're doubling down on it, is assuming way too much. But, that's no surprise at all.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                              I'll defend CP on this one. He's made pretty clear he isn't a MAGA'er or a white supremacist sympathizer.
                              No one accused him of that.

                              It's ridiclous that after a bunch of MAGA boys stage a violent rally that he is still brow beating liberals. Good grief, how many threads is this site going to have blaming liberals for all of Americas problems? I know the SJW's are a freak show, but the alt-right is just as dangerous, and should be called out.

                              Comment

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