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Thread: Is not the Quran a 100% preserved?

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Is not the Quran a 100% preserved?

    Proverbs 30:5,
    Every word of God is pure: . . .

    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    tWebber
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    at least...some of the facts in the video are correct---which is commendable, but the presumption, definitions and conclusions are all incorrect.
    I am not particularly concerned what a Non-Muslim thinks about the Quran...so I will explain the Muslim pov/narrative......

    1) The Prophet(pbuh) could not write---the Quran was recited by the Prophet and memorized by the audience....some of whom also wrote it down.
    today---a vast number of Muslims still memorize the whole Quran, word for word, and recitation competitions are held in many countries. Even if all print copies of the Quran were destroyed---the Ummah would be able to reproduce the exact Quranic text (word for word) again....
    2) The Surah are not neatly divided into Meccan/Medinan because some surah/verses came peicemeal and the Prophet told where they would go---so some Meccan Surahs have some Medinan verses and Medinan surah have some Meccan verses....etc....the division of Meccan/Medinan is simply a rough designation in order to give the Quran a historical anchor....The Quran is as the Prophet (or rather God) intended it to be.
    (So when some Non-Muslim professors try to break up the Quran in order to teach it "chronologically"...they are incorrect and doing a disservice (mutilation) to the book they are trying to teach about....)
    3) The Quran is One---but there are many styles of recitation (Tajwid) from the beginning (time of the Prophet)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tajwid
    an Muslim explaantion-
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtzLKJqQojU

    The Muslim narrative of the compilation and preservation of the Quran
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2k_XsdY68g
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICu3ITHnBoM

    There have been studies of the thematic links and intersections of the Quranic verses and surahs---some scholars have shown the thematic pairing of the surah as well as larger thematic groupings.

    IMO, The test to see if the Quran is preserved or not is pretty simple---get several Quran memorizers (Hafiz) and check to see if their recitation can reproduce the Quranic text, word for word, without error....I would say---it would take a "miracle" to destroy the Arabic Quran....Even if an intentionally corrupted version of the Arabic Quran were printed by some non-Muslim---it would be rejected by the Ummah.
    Last edited by siam; 08-14-2017 at 06:06 AM.

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Thank you siam,

    There is a Psalm,
    Psalm 119:89,
    For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

    God told His prophet Isaiah regarding His word,
    Isaiah 55:11,
    . . . So shall My word be that goeth forth out of My mouth: it shall not return unto Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it. . . .


    That God is able to preserve His word is not at issue.

    God told Moses,
    Deuteronomy 8:3,
    . . . know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every [word] that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.


    All men whether believer or not must live by all that God speaks.

    God does not change His word. That is at issue.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
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    The Sahih Hadith, and other early Islamic sources put the lie to siam's claim that everyone would have remembered the Koran perfectly.

    Sahih Muslim 2286: Abu Harb b. Abu al-Aswad reported on the authority of his father that Abu Musa al-Ash'ari sent for the reciters of Basra. They came to him and they were three hundred in number. They recited the Qur'an and he said: You are the best among the inhabitants of Basra, for you are the reciters among them. So continue to recite it. (But bear in mind) that your reciting for a long time may not harden your hearts as were hardened the hearts of those before you. We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara'at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: "If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust." And we used to recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it, but remember (this much) out of it: "O people who believe, why do you say that which you do not practise" (lxi. 2) and "that is recorded in your necks as a witness (against you) and you would be asked about it on the Day of Resurrection" (xvii. 13).

    The person who was said by Mohammed to be the best person to do to to learn the Koran says that the version standardized by Uthman is "guilty of deceit".

    Narrated Masruq: Abdullah bin Mas'ud was mentioned before Abdullah bin Amr who said, "That is a man I still love, as I heard the Prophet (saw) saying, 'Learn the recitation of the Qur'an from four: from Abdullah bin Mas'ud - he started with him - Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa, Mu'adh bin Jabal and Ubai bin Ka'b". (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 5, p.96).

    'The people have been guilty of deceit in the reading of the Qur'an. I like it better to read according to the recitation of him (Prophet) whom I love more than that of Zayd Ibn Thabit. By Him besides Whom there is no god! I learnt more than seventy surahs from the lips of the Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, while Zayd Ibn Thabit was a youth, having two locks and playing with the youth". (Ibn Sa'd, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Vol. 2, p.444)

    Zayd Ibn Thabit was the one commissioned by Uthman to compile the "official" Koran. He then went and had all other manuscripts burned. Which is not even a little bit fishy, right? Oh, and then Aisha's goat ate some verses that were supposed to be in the Koran, but are no longer there.

    Sahih Muslim 3422—Amra reported that she heard Aisha discussing fosterage which (makes marriage) unlawful; and she (Aisha) said: There was revealed in the Holy Qur'an ten clear sucklings, and then five clear (sucklings).



    Sahih Muslim 3417—Allah's Apostle said: Being suckled once or twice, or one suckling or two, do not make marriage unlawful.



    Sunan ibn Majah 1944—It was narrated that Aisha said: “The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.”

    These verses are known about because of Aisha, but they are not in the Koran today. From Suyuti Itqan we have the following.

    Abu ^Ubaid said: "IsnuTil b. Ibrahlm reported to us, from Ayyub, from Nafi\ from Ibn
    "Umar, who said: 'None of you should say that he has full knowledge of the Qur'an; how could
    he know what full knowledge is! So much of the Qur'an has passed him by! Let him say instead:
    'I have taken of the Qur'an that which was present."

    He also said: "Ibn Abu Maryam reported to us from Ibn Lahfa, from Abu '1-Aswad, from
    "Urwa b. '1-Zubair, that A'isha said: "During the time of the Prophet (s) two hundred verses of
    the chapter '1-Ahzab were recited but when compiling the Qur'an ^Uthman was only able to
    collect what now exists."

    He also said: Ismall b. Ja x far reported to us from '1-Mubarak b. Fudala, from ^Asim b.
    Abu '1-Nujud, from Zirr b. Hubaish who said: "'Ubayy b. Ka^b told me: 'How many verses do
    you count in the chapter '1-Ahzab? I said: '72 or 73 verses.' He said: At one time it had as many
    verses as '1-Baqara, including the verse on stoning which we used to recite.' I said: "What is the
    verse of stoning?' He said: 'If a married man or woman fornicates, stone them without hesitation;
    a fitting punishment from God. God is Mighty, and all Wise.'

    He also said: "Hajjaj reported to us from Ibn Juraij that: 'Ibn Abu Humaid informed me
    from Humaida b. Abu Yunus, who said: At the age of 80 my father recited to me, out of the
    mushaf of x A'isha: "Verily God and His angels send salutations to the Prophet. O! Ye who
    believe! Send salutations and greetings to him; and to those who pray in the first row.' This was
    before ^Uthman altered the Scripture
    ."

    Ibn Abu Hatim reports that Abu Musa 'l-\Asrf ari said: "We used to recite a chapter that
    we compared to the musabbihat, 2 but we were made to forget it, except for one verse which I
    memorized: 'O! Ye who believe! Speak not of that upon which you act not, lest it be recorded
    against you, and you be asked about it on the Day of Resurrection."

    He also said: Ibn Abu Maryam informed us, from Naff b. "Umar '1-Jumahi who said: 'Ibn
    Abu Mulaika informed me, from Miswar b. Makhrama who said: '"Umar said to x Abd '1-Rahman
    b. x Auf: "I have been unable to find a verse revealed to us "Strive now, as you have in the past.'
    Do you know of its whereabouts?' He replied: "It was effaced along with everything else that
    was effaced from the Qur'an
    .

    siam will likely ignore all of this, just like last time when I showed him all of the evidence of the Koran's disturbing levels of alteration. Especially for a book that claims to be perfectly preserved. He already knows much of what I posted here from elsewhere, so I can only see his recent post as dishonest.

  5. Amen 37818 amen'd this post.
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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Thank you siam,

    There is a Psalm,
    Psalm 119:89,
    For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

    God told His prophet Isaiah regarding His word,
    Isaiah 55:11,
    . . . So shall My word be that goeth forth out of My mouth: it shall not return unto Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it. . . .


    That God is able to preserve His word is not at issue.

    God told Moses,
    Deuteronomy 8:3,
    . . . know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every [word] that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.


    All men whether believer or not must live by all that God speaks.

    God does not change His word. That is at issue.
    Change or preserve----it is a matter of definition....how tight or loose the definition is---will change the argument.....What Muslims say is that the Quran is "preserved" in accordance with the Muslim narrative. What this means is that any variance (dialect, pronunciation) that exists, does so on the (traceable) authority of the Prophet. The timeframe between the death of the Prophet and the Uthmani codex is approx 20 years---many of the people who memorized the Quran when it was being revealed were still alive---as were the family and companions of the Prophet (pbuh)---therefore, if the Question is---was the Quran drastically changed from the time of the death of the Prophet to the time of the Uthmani codex----it is highly unlikely because it has not changed in the 1400 years following the Uthmani codex......

    From the Muslim pov---there are aspects of the timeless and timebound in Divine Guidance. What is timeless (Tawheed) does not change---what is timebound (Law) does change. This is the case with knowledge in general as well---all knowledge is from God---timeless wisdom does not change, acquired knowledge can change over time.....
    God has not changed the message/guidance of Tawheed from the time of Prophet Adam to all the Prophets and Wisdom Teachers he has sent to all humanity---both Biblical and non-Biblical (as in, those not mentioned in the Bible)

    This is how the Quran explains it---
    (Surah 40:78)
    Sahih International: And We have already sent messengers before you. Among them are those [whose stories] We have related to you, and among them are those [whose stories] We have not related to you. And it was not for any messenger to bring a sign [or verse] except by permission of Allah. So when the command of Allah comes, it will be concluded in truth, and the falsifiers will thereupon lose [all].

    Pickthall: Verily We sent messengers before thee, among them those of whom We have told thee, and some of whom We have not told thee; and it was not given to any messenger that he should bring a portent save by Allah's leave, but when Allah's commandment cometh (the cause) is judged aright, and the followers of vanity will then be lost.

    Yusuf Ali: We did aforetime send messengers before thee: of them there are some whose story We have related to thee, and some whose story We have not related to thee. It was not (possible) for any messenger to bring a sign except by the leave of Allah: but when the Command of Allah issued, the matter was decided in truth and justice, and there perished, there and then those who stood on Falsehoods.

    God is most compassionate and most merciful---he sent Guidance to all humanity and when some groups fell into error, he sent Prophets or Wisdom teachers to correct such errors, Jesus Christ would be an example of a Jewish Prophet sent to the Jews. The Buddha may (or not) be an example of a Wisdom Teacher sent to a group who had fallen into error.....ALL humanity is God's creation and God does not abandon the care and provision of all of it throughout time.

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    tWebber
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    @cerebrum123

    Please accept my apologies for ignoring your input. A lot of time and effort must have gone into researching it and I appreciate your interest---but these types of "proofs" have been refuted by other Muslims on plenty of other sites and I do not want to get into a copy/paste battle----particularly over ahadith which are a tedious read to begin with....and the body of ahadith work is very large and complex.
    A variety of perspectives always enhance knowledge...so thankyou for your posts here and elsewhere.....

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    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    @cerebrum123

    Please accept my apologies for ignoring your input. A lot of time and effort must have gone into researching it and I appreciate your interest---but these types of "proofs" have been refuted by other Muslims on plenty of other sites and I do not want to get into a copy/paste battle----particularly over ahadith which are a tedious read to begin with....and the body of ahadith work is very large and complex.
    A variety of perspectives always enhance knowledge...so thankyou for your posts here and elsewhere.....
    At very minimum give a link to these so called "refutations", because I've done a lot of research at Muslim run sites, and all they due is ignore the issues, like you are doing now. The Koran itself is boring and tedious, but I go through it for research, and have shown you just how vile and evil its teachings are. My previous post was more for the benefit of others since I've already seen how you just ignore what doesn't fit your preferred beliefs.

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    <snip> ... if the Question is---was the Quran drastically changed from the time of the death of the Prophet to the time of the Uthmani codex----it is highly unlikely because it has not changed in the 1400 years following the Uthmani codex......
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    tWebber
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    This short video above explains the general Islamic narrative about the Quran accepted by Muslims.
    The longer video links on the preservation of the Quran that I gave earlier, also explain the same generally accepted Islamic narrative---though they are long videos.

    The 4 Caliphs after the Prophet (pbuh) are called the Rashidun and Uthman ibn Affan was the third of the 4---he was Caliph from approx 644 CE--656 CE and the territory rapidly expanded into (present day) Egypt to Afghanistan (more or less)---so, non-Arabic speaking people became part of the Ummah (community of believers). This was also a reason for the steps that Caliph Uthman took to preserve the integrity of the Quran.

    (The period of the Rashidun Caliphs is approx 632 -- 661 CE)

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    So is it to be understood, with Uthman's restoration of the Quran, that it shows that Uthman had the very same authority as Muhammad?
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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