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Thread: Is not the Quran a 100% preserved?

  1. #11
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    So is it to be understood, with Uthman's restoration of the Quran, that it shows that Uthman had the very same authority as Muhammad?
    No, he does not.

    Prophet---In Islam, the term means Messenger (of God) and the "authority" comes from God---it cannot be self-designated or chosen by a group.
    (That is why groups or individuals that have self-designated or group designated "Prophets" are not considered "Muslim" even though they themselves may use the label Islam/Muslim to refer to themselves)

    The Rashidun (Rightfully Guided) Caliphs were Abu Bakr as Siddiq (632-634 CE), Umar ibn Khattab (634-644 CE), Uthman ibn Affan (644--656 CE) Ali ibn Abu Talib 656--661 CE).
    These people were the Companions of the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and after his death became the leaders of the Community (chosen by consensus). They were NOT Prophets.

    An outline of a general Islamic narrative of the compilation process is:-
    The first "mushaf"---official book form---of the Quran was done under Caliph Abu Bakr. During the time of the Prophet, the Quran was written but not in book form and Caliph Abu Bakr had someone collect all these written works along with those who had memorized the whole of the Quran and authenticated it by establishing that a particular written work had been written in the presence of the Prophet himself and there was a witness who could corroborate this. All of this was also authenticated by the memorizers (Hafiz). (At this time, the various authorized dialects were common...the Prophet was a Quraish---and spoke the Quraishi dialect but authorized other dialects, pronouncitation also....)

    By the time Caliph Uthman standardized what is now called the "Uthmani codex"---much of the work was already done---He checked everything so that each written work had 2 witnesses to corroborate that it had been written in the presence of the Prophet and where there were differences he standardized it (written mushaf) to the Quraishi form.

    Quran---the revealed (speech) from God. This speech was revealed through the Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) but not everything the Prophet spoke was "God's speech"--- that is why there is a difference between Quran (God's speech) and ahadith, the speech of the Prophet. A translation is not the "Quran" (even if the title claims it to be) but a "tafsir" because it does not have the authority of the Prophet.
    So---if a written work had a "mistake"---it is not "The Quran"---as in (authorized) God's speech. What is "God's speech" is determined through the agency of the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh).
    The Prophet could not read or write so when a revelation was written by someone, the scribe/writer often read it aloud to the Prophet for verification.
    Differences in pronunciation that caused a slight difference in meaning were also recited to the Prophet for verification and approval.

    The Islamic perspective is that the Quran we have today is the same Quran that was revealed to the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh).
    The non-Muslim scholarly consensus is that the Quran Muslims use today can be traced back to what is called the "Uthmani codex". In time, as early Quran copies are discovered---the rest of the Muslim narrative may be verified.

  2. #12
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    No, he does not.
    <snip>
    The Islamic perspective is that the Quran we have today is the same Quran that was revealed to the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh).
    <snip>
    So is the Uthman story a falsehood?

    How do you know the Quran you now have is the Quran?
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    So is the Uthman story a falsehood?

    How do you know the Quran you now have is the Quran?
    I don't understand the first question...could u rephrase or elaborate....?....

    It is generally accepted in academia among scholars and researchers that the Quran of today is the "Uthmani codex."
    The Muslim narrative puts the first compilation to the time of Caliph Abu Bakr and the "Uthmani codex" used that compilation and the compilation process as a guide.....
    The Quran is and was---since the beginning---memorized. Even today, the Quran memorizers can recite the whole Quran without aid of a text. As explained before, the Quran was memorized by a very large number of people during the time of the Prophet (pbuh)---one does not have to be able to read/write in order to memorize the Quran.

    Questions about the Quran that may be important for Non-Muslims, may not hold the same degree of importance for Muslims.....Orientalism presumes that because the Bible had a certain historical trajectory...development process...that the Quran must also have followed the same course.....But European and/or Biblical history is not some default setting that everyone/everthing must be complied to...it only tells the specific story of Europe and/or Bible...other histories have their own stories...

    As a Muslim, I am satisfied with the narrative of the Islamic tradition, I am satisfied with the Literary criticism and analysis that Muslim scholars have researched of the Quran, and as a reader of the Quran myself...I am satisfied with the content of the Quran as a Guidance and Wisdom teaching....

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    I don't understand the first question...could u rephrase or elaborate....?....
    If the Quran is as given through Muhammad then it cannot be the Uthman codex. If the Quran that now is, is the Uthman codex then it is not the Quran as was given through Muhammad.

    It is generally accepted in academia among scholars and researchers that the Quran of today is the "Uthmani codex."
    Then it is impossible to be the very Quran as given through Muhammad originally. Since Uthman was no prophet.

    The Muslim narrative puts the first compilation to the time of Caliph Abu Bakr and the "Uthmani codex" used that compilation and the compilation process as a guide.....
    Can you cite a Hadith for this claim?

    The Quran is and was---since the beginning---memorized.
    Then it is nothing more than an oral tradition not God-breathed writing upon being written.

    Even today, the Quran memorizers can recite the whole Quran without aid of a text. As explained before, the Quran was memorized by a very large number of people during the time of the Prophet (pbuh)---one does not have to be able to read/write in order to memorize the Quran.
    The 1st century Apostle Peter wrote that the written was more sure than the hearing of God's voice (2 Peter 1:19). Having heard God's voice from Heaven himself (2 Peter 1:17). (The context, 2 Peter 1:16-21).

    Questions about the Quran that may be important for Non-Muslims, may not hold the same degree of importance for Muslims.....Orientalism presumes that because the Bible had a certain historical trajectory...development process...that the Quran must also have followed the same course.....But European and/or Biblical history is not some default setting that everyone/everthing must be complied to...it only tells the specific story of Europe and/or Bible...other histories have their own stories...
    The Law as God gave the prophet Moses requires mankind to hear all that God has spoken (Deuteronomy 8:3).

    As a Muslim, I am satisfied with the narrative of the Islamic tradition, I am satisfied with the Literary criticism and analysis that Muslim scholars have researched of the Quran, and as a reader of the Quran myself...I am satisfied with the content of the Quran as a Guidance and Wisdom teaching....
    The claim that the Quran is God's word is not to be taken lightly (Deuteronomy 8:3).

    But in the Proverb (30:5-6) the promise is made that God would make liars out of those who would falsely add to His words.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  5. #15
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    If the Quran is as given through Muhammad then it cannot be the Uthman codex. If the Quran that now is, is the Uthman codex then it is not the Quran as was given through Muhammad.

    Then it is impossible to be the very Quran as given through Muhammad originally. Since Uthman was no prophet.

    Can you cite a Hadith for this claim?

    Then it is nothing more than an oral tradition not God-breathed writing upon being written.

    The 1st century Apostle Peter wrote that the written was more sure than the hearing of God's voice (2 Peter 1:19). Having heard God's voice from Heaven himself (2 Peter 1:17). (The context, 2 Peter 1:16-21).


    The Law as God gave the prophet Moses requires mankind to hear all that God has spoken (Deuteronomy 8:3).



    The claim that the Quran is God's word is not to be taken lightly (Deuteronomy 8:3).

    But in the Proverb (30:5-6) the promise is made that God would make liars out of those who would falsely add to His words.
    Wow!..there is a lot of confusion here?....could u go through the first video?
    there are 2 other video links, (by me), one by a historian Khalid Blankenship and the other by a Muslim scholar Sh. Hamza Yusuf that explain all this......
    ...the one By Sh Yasir Qadi is also good---though the emphasis is on a different point.....

    "Uthmani codex" is the name given by "Western"/Non-Muslim scholars to the compilation done by Caliph Uthman in order to compare any early copies, pages, fragments that are discovered. I use this term because Western/Non-Muslim scholarship is still in the process of "discovery" with regards to the first compilation....though, they have kinda lost interest in the project as there are other ways of analyzing the Quran...particularly if one throws away the presumption that the Quran must follow the Biblical historical trajectory.......

    Hadith are the sayings of the Prophet---therefore, there are unlikely to be any hadith with regards to the compilation process of either Abu Bakr or Uthman....they became Caliphs AFTER the death of the Prophet....

    God breathed writing?---not sure what this means, but the Prophet DID NOT write the Quran---he was illiterate---others wrote (or memorized) the revelation as it was recited by the Prophet. The term " Quran" can mean "recitation". For Muslims, the Prophet is not the "author" of the Quran---for Non-Muslim historians, researchers and scholars, "who wrote the Quran" is not of particular interest as it concerns a theological matter.....since the Quran is self-referential---Most scholars (and non-scholarly people such as myself) simply speak of the Quran as if it were its own "author".....this neatly avoids the question of whether God or the Prophet is the "author"....and IMO, facilitates research co-operation between Non-Muslim and Muslim scholars on the Quran. The field of Quranic research in the West is still young...and they need to catch up to what Muslim scholars have already done...so, co-operation may lead to benefits for both sides as long as it is seriously and respectfully done....

    What the Bible says or does not say on the subject of revelation may be of interest to Christians...but as a Muslim...I don't know what to do with it....?....The verses of the Quran are an ayat (sign/revelation) from God in text form---but nature/creation is also an ayat (sign/revelation) from God in non-text form. Both are important and the responsibility for their care and protection is on all Muslims.

    Some directions the field of (Western) Quranic research is taking:-
    Intertextuality---the dialogue the Quran has with other types of texts of the era...
    Philology---development of language, grammer...etc
    Literary anaylsis---the devices the Quran uses...etc
    Thematic analysis---development of the themes...
    there is also some interest in what the themes/subjects of the Quranic dialogues with Syriac Christianity can reveal about the Christians of the era...(late antiquity)...
    Last edited by siam; 08-21-2017 at 03:37 AM.

  6. #16
    tWebber
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    Western Quran scholars are interested in looking at the Quran as a text/book (kitab) and what that signifies in terms of Jewish, Christian and European heritage...(Daniel Madigan, Angelika Neuwirth, ...etc)
    Eastern scholars have also been interested in the Quran and there have been interesting works on Quran as a "Philosophy" comparable to philosophies of Taoism, Confucianism and Zen Buddhism....
    ...60% of the Worlds Muslims are in the East and Islam came into the East pretty early....the Han kitab (Qing dynasty work) for example, is an Islamic/Confucian philosophical synthesis ....and there are others...Toshihiko Istuzu has been influential for both Muslim and Non-Muslim scholars of the Quran.....

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    It is reported that the standard Egyptian edition of the Qur’an, first published on July 10, 1924 in Cairo, an edition which is now what is widely used as the official and as the original text of the Arabic of the Qur’an.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    The Oldest Qur'an
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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