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Thread: Is not the Quran a 100% preserved?

  1. #71
    tWebber
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    Here's the link to the whole of Ali Dashti's book "Bist O Seh Sal" in Persian, you can download the PDF book from here. I have rhe actual book. Then go & see the citations on the actual pages yourself siam :-

    https://1400years.org/books/twentythreeyearsEN.pdf

    The koran according to this Muslim thinker is NOT the word of God!

    Humans have already duplicated it and surpassed it in sublime quality from a long time back!



    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    Provide links so I can double-check, otherwise I will view info as suspect.

    The Quran was revealed in a socio-cultural background that highly valued poetry and had a high literary sophistication.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_poetry
    The first major poet in the pre-Islamic era is Imru' al-Qais, the last king of the kingdom of Kindah. Although most of the poetry of that era was not preserved, what remains is well regarded as the finest of Arabic poetry to date. In addition to the eloquence and artistic value, pre-Islamic poetry constitutes a major source for classical Arabic language both in grammar and vocabulary, and as a reliable historical record of the political and cultural life of the time.

    Poetry held an important position in pre-Islamic society with the poet or sha'ir filling the role of historian, soothsayer and propagandist. Words in praise of the tribe (qit'ah) and lampoons denigrating other tribes (hija') seem to have been some of the most popular forms of early poetry. The sha'ir represented an individual tribe's prestige and importance in the Arabian peninsula, and mock battles in poetry or zajal would stand in lieu of real wars. 'Ukaz, a market town not far from Mecca, would play host to a regular poetry festival where the craft of the sha'irs would be exhibited.


    The Quran is NOT poetry, nevertheless it has its own rhythm (saj)
    (Saj)--"It is a species of diction to which the Arabic language peculiarly lends itself, because of its structure, the mathematical precision of its manifold formations and the essential assonance of numerous derivatives from the same root supplying the connexion between the sound and signification of words."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saj%27

    Apart from saj, the Quran uses many other grammatical and literary devices. It also has a ring structure, chiastic structure...etc.
    The use of these tools creates a balance in the verses and Surahs of the Quran such that changing a single word unbalances it. On the other hand, the saj and balance of Quranic surahs make them easier to memorize without error.

    The Quranic revelation was recited in public and freely for Muslims and non-Muslims to hear. It was also interactive to a degree---so, for example, when there was a complaint made that Arabic was grammatically gendered towards the male default, verses 35 of Surah 33 was revealed which specifically mentions women.---
    “For men and women who are devoted to God – believing men and women, obedient men and women, truthful men and women, steadfast men and women, humble men and women, charitable men and women, fasting men and women, chaste men and women, men and women who remember God often – God has prepared forgiveness and a rich reward.” Qur’an 33:35 On another occassion, a complaint was made that the Quranic stories are short/there is not a full story (beginning, middle, end) and the story of Prophet Joseph/Yusuf was revealed. The literary quality of the Quran was so high that some complained that the Prophet (pbuh) was a poet---the Quran answers that he is not.
    What none of the Arab listeners ever complained about was grammatical errors or low literary quality of the Quran.

    If a Quranic surah was so easy to replicate---it could have been done anytime in the 1,400 years of its existence. But not once has a single surah been replicated to the high literary sophistication of the Quran.

  2. #72
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    According to Islamic tradition, the Qur'an is the literal word of God provided by the archangel Gabriel which Muhammad recorded perfectly. Muslims believe that the wording of the Quranic text remains unchanged and what is available today corresponds exactly to that revealed to Muhammad

    ....
    Thanks for the video.

    It is important to question...without questioning we cannot build Iman (faith/trust). Blind belief is discouraged in the Quran. Sometimes, each generation needs to ask the same questions that a previous generation asked....and answered...so as to be independently convinced rather than simply following in the "traditions" of the past. This struggle/Jihad for knowledge is necessary in order to have conviction---Iman = the use of ones intellect and reason to arrive at heartfelt conviction.
    God willing, this person will find the answers he is searching for.

    The material that Dr Saleem (and others with the same questions) uses is all from Islamic sources. This material is open to all scholars both Muslim and non-Muslim and has been so from the beginning. The questions that this person asks are not new. Muslim scholars have seen these materials/sources, have researched and come to the conclusion that the Quran is as Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) meant it to be.

    I am fine with that conclusion...because I do not have the time or the intellectual capacity to re-ask all these questions---for me, reading the Quran has convinced me of its wisdom and that works for me.


    Also Note---I gave a link to Surah Al Fatiha previously.....
    there are different readings of the word "Malik" ---so that in one case it means King and in the other it means Owner. The video link of the explanation of Al-Fatiha uses the reading of "Owner".

  3. #73
    tWebber
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    Talking

    It was by questioning and critiquing islam, muhamed and the Koran that many sincere and devout Muslims have lost their faith in Islam and left Islam - especially when they have the freedoms to do so in non-islamic societies. Not only were the imams, ustazs and ulema (clergy) unable to provide good and reasonable answers to these ex-Muslims sincere questions, many just parroted the worthless islamic mantra & slogans "Bila kaif" and "walahuallam". That is- "just believe without asking how" and "only God/Allah knows best", which is a useless and unhelpful mantra to all sensible and open minded, thinking people!

    An intelligent and intellectual muslim like Ali Dashti was able to conclude this about the inconsistencies and problems of the Koran:

    "The Qor'an contains sentences which are incomplete and not fully intelligible without the aid of commentaries; foreign words, unfamiliar Arabic words, and words used with other than the normal meaning; adjectives and verbs inflected without observance of the concords of gender and number; illogically and ungrammatically applied pronouns which sometimes have no referent; and predicates which in rhymed passages are often remote from the subjects.

    "These and other SUCH ABERRATIONS in the language have given scope to critics who deny the Qor'an's eloquence. THE PROBLEM ALSO OCCUPIED THE MINDS OF DEVOUT MOSLEMS. It forced the commentators to search for explanations and was probably one of the causes of disagreement over readings." (pp. 48-49)

    The views on the Qor'an held by Ebrahim on-Nazzam have been already mentioned, and it must be added that THEY WERE NOT HIS ALONE, but were also held by other scholars of the Mo'tazelite school such as Hesham b. 'Amr pl-Fuwati (d. ca. 218/833) and 'Abbad b. Solayman (d. ca. 250/864). ALL WERE DEVOUT BELIEVERS.

    The great and penetrating Arab thinker Abu'l-'Ala ol-Ma'arri considered some of his own writings ON A PAR WITH THE ELOQUENCE OF THE QOR'AN. (p. 50)

    "To sum up, more than ONE HUNDRED Qor'anic aberrations from the normal rules and structure of Arabic have been noted. Needless to say, THE COMMENTATORS STROVE TO FIND EXPLANATIONS AND JUSTIFICATIONS FOR THESE IRREGULARITIES. Among them was the great commentator and philologist MAHMUD OZ-ZAMAKHSHARI (467/1075-538/1144)

    Ali Dashti, 23 Years: A study of the Prophetic Career of Muhammad, Mazda Publishers,U.S.; 1994

    In the 21st century, with the advent of the internet, ex-muslims (and former muslim missionary) like Abdullah Sameer can broadcast his, and others' Testimonies why Islam is absolutely NOT the truth it claims to be, UNSUITABLE for the normal people in this Day and Age.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFhuW5z4ES4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfH_lWtMJgY

    Sameer's YouTube channel exposing the deceptions of the koran and islam:

    https://www.youtube.com/user/abdullahadam

    If islam was false and absolutely UNSUITABLE for muslims like Abdullah Sameer and many ex-muslims like him, it is desperate & hopeless for you to think we would be persuaded by your polemics and propoganda siam.






    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    Thanks for the video.

    It is important to question...without questioning we cannot build Iman (faith/trust). Blind belief is discouraged in the Quran. Sometimes, each generation needs to ask the same questions that a previous generation asked....and answered...so as to be independently convinced rather than simply following in the "traditions" of the past. This struggle/Jihad for knowledge is necessary in order to have conviction---Iman = the use of ones intellect and reason to arrive at heartfelt conviction.
    God willing, this person will find the answers he is searching for.

    The material that Dr Saleem (and others with the same questions) uses is all from Islamic sources. This material is open to all scholars both Muslim and non-Muslim and has been so from the beginning. The questions that this person asks are not new. Muslim scholars have seen these materials/sources, have researched and come to the conclusion that the Quran is as Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) meant it to be.

    I am fine with that conclusion...because I do not have the time or the intellectual capacity to re-ask all these questions---for me, reading the Quran has convinced me of its wisdom and that works for me.


    Also Note---I gave a link to Surah Al Fatiha previously.....
    there are different readings of the word "Malik" ---so that in one case it means King and in the other it means Owner. The video link of the explanation of Al-Fatiha uses the reading of "Owner".

  4. #74
    tWebber
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    Though Western Quranic studies is still in its infancy, "Post-orientalist" views of many scholars today incline them towards taking the Quranic "voice"/agency more seriously. The question of the Quranic compilation is no longer of much interest as it has become pretty much accepted that the Islamic history was accurate. (ex, Estelle Whelan, Adrian Brocket...etc) Some Western scholars have moved on to the linguistic and structural aspects of the Quran. (Mary Douglas, Micheal Cuyprs, Raymond Farrin...etc) and others exploring the thematic, intertextual, intratextual aspects (ex Toshihiko Istuzu, Angelicka Neuwirth...etc) The idea that the Quran borrows/repeats Jewish/Christian texts/stories is also being discarded in favor of a Quranic "dialogue" with the Quran using rhetorical/literary devices to persuade towards its paradigmatic views. Such endeavors requires a more thorough and in-depth scrutiny and analysis of the Quran than was previously done in Western academia. (Muslim scholars have already done this centuries ago)
    Hopefully these will yield interesting new insights that will benefit both Muslims and Non-Muslims.

  5. #75
    tWebber
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    Not true, siam. Your appeal to such circular reasoning "internal witness' narratives for your dubious Koran falls flat on its face when Koranic studies scholars - who have objectively examined the evidence - BOTH Internal and External, have NOTHING flattering to say about koranic reliability:

    "TO describe, still less to account for, the rise of Islam is a matter
    of peculiar difficulty. Renan’s claim that Islam was the only religion
    to be born in the full light of history can hardly be sustained in
    view of the fact that we have virtually no contemporary witness.

    "Our knowledge of Muhammad is derived from the Koran, the
    hadith or traditions, and the sira or formal biography.

    Concerning the first - the Koran, no non-Muslim scholar has ever doubted that
    it was his personal composition
    , the revelations he claimed to have received
    from God during the last twenty years of his life; it is therefore the
    most authentic mirror of his career and doctrine, but its figurative
    style, obscure allusions, and uncertain dating of its suras or
    chapters
    , make it highly unsatisfactory as a biographical source. !

    "The second consists of an enormous mass of sayings and stories
    attributed to the Prophet, and guaranteed by an isnad, or chain of
    witnesses, framed on the pattern: ‘I heard from A, who heard from
    B, who heard from C, that the Prophet said…’ But memory is fallible,
    and isnads may be forged, and the desire of parties or
    groups in later years to justify their particular beliefs
    or practices
    by citing the authority of Muhammad for them undoubtedly
    produced an alarming amount of falsification.


    To base a life of the Prophet on the hadith is to BUILD ON SAND. The sira
    is a more valuable and reliable source, since it gives a full account of
    Muhammad’s career in narrative form, but the earliest of these
    compositions which has come down to us, the Sirat Rasul Allah,
    or Life of the Apostle of God, by Ibn Ishaq, was put together well
    over a century after his death, and the portrait is already tinged
    with miracle and legend
    . Nor can we rely on foreign witnesses.

    The records of the Persian kingdom perished in the Arab conquest, and
    the oldest historical account of Muhammad by a Byzantine Greek
    is that of the monk Theophanes, who wrote when the Prophet had
    been dead nearly two hundred years. Every sketch of his life must
    thus be fragmentary and defective, and the many gaps must be
    filled by speculation.


    J.J. Saunders, A History of Medieval Islam, Taylor & Francis e-Library, 2002, 19-20.



    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    Though Western Quranic studies is still in its infancy, "Post-orientalist" views of many scholars today incline them towards taking the Quranic "voice"/agency more seriously. The question of the Quranic compilation is no longer of much interest as it has become pretty much accepted that the Islamic history was accurate. (ex, Estelle Whelan, Adrian Brocket...etc) Some Western scholars have moved on to the linguistic and structural aspects of the Quran. (Mary Douglas, Micheal Cuyprs, Raymond Farrin...etc) and others exploring the thematic, intertextual, intratextual aspects (ex Toshihiko Istuzu, Angelicka Neuwirth...etc) The idea that the Quran borrows/repeats Jewish/Christian texts/stories is also being discarded in favor of a Quranic "dialogue" with the Quran using rhetorical/literary devices to persuade towards its paradigmatic views. Such endeavors requires a more thorough and in-depth scrutiny and analysis of the Quran than was previously done in Western academia. (Muslim scholars have already done this centuries ago)
    Hopefully these will yield interesting new insights that will benefit both Muslims and Non-Muslims.

  6. #76
    tWebber
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    If muslims dislike the non-muslims scholars studies and research findings on the Koran, hadith, sunna and even the Sirah (or history of Muhd.) Then let a Muslim's research and diligent investigations reveal the truth about the sources of orthodox islam - the Koran, hadith and the Sirah.

    Brother Rachid of Morocco, a native Arab speaker, devoted Muslim and seeker for truth produced a powerful video and PowerPoint on his research into the "official biography of Muhamed" the sirat rasulullah by the 'well-known' Ibn Ishaq. Rachid has since left Islam and become a Christian, resulting from his diligent research and open, objective investigation into the sources of Islam and the sunna.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD5tL4LDH-M

    It is amazing how much forgery there are in the origins of Rachid's religion that he quit..And they dare claim the New Testament and Gospel have been 'corrupted', tampered and changed, when the proofs are not at all in their favor, while the proofs for the veracity and reliability of the NT, Gospel and the Bible are overwhelmingly strong.







    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    Not true, siam. Your appeal to such circular reasoning "internal witness' narratives for your dubious Koran falls flat on its face when Koranic studies scholars - who have objectively examined the evidence - BOTH Internal and External, have NOTHING flattering to say about koranic reliability:

    "TO describe, still less to account for, the rise of Islam is a matter
    of peculiar difficulty. Renan’s claim that Islam was the only religion
    to be born in the full light of history can hardly be sustained in
    view of the fact that we have virtually no contemporary witness.

    "Our knowledge of Muhammad is derived from the Koran, the
    hadith or traditions, and the sira or formal biography.

    Concerning the first - the Koran, no non-Muslim scholar has ever doubted that
    it was his personal composition
    , the revelations he claimed to have received
    from God during the last twenty years of his life; it is therefore the
    most authentic mirror of his career and doctrine, but its figurative
    style, obscure allusions, and uncertain dating of its suras or
    chapters
    , make it highly unsatisfactory as a biographical source. !

    "The second consists of an enormous mass of sayings and stories
    attributed to the Prophet, and guaranteed by an isnad, or chain of
    witnesses, framed on the pattern: ‘I heard from A, who heard from
    B, who heard from C, that the Prophet said…’ But memory is fallible,
    and isnads may be forged, and the desire of parties or
    groups in later years to justify their particular beliefs
    or practices
    by citing the authority of Muhammad for them undoubtedly
    produced an alarming amount of falsification.


    To base a life of the Prophet on the hadith is to BUILD ON SAND. The sira
    is a more valuable and reliable source, since it gives a full account of
    Muhammad’s career in narrative form, but the earliest of these
    compositions which has come down to us, the Sirat Rasul Allah,
    or Life of the Apostle of God, by Ibn Ishaq, was put together well
    over a century after his death, and the portrait is already tinged
    with miracle and legend
    . Nor can we rely on foreign witnesses.

    The records of the Persian kingdom perished in the Arab conquest, and
    the oldest historical account of Muhammad by a Byzantine Greek
    is that of the monk Theophanes, who wrote when the Prophet had
    been dead nearly two hundred years. Every sketch of his life must
    thus be fragmentary and defective, and the many gaps must be
    filled by speculation.


    J.J. Saunders, A History of Medieval Islam, Taylor & Francis e-Library, 2002, 19-20.

  7. Amen 37818 amen'd this post.

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