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Is not the Quran a 100% preserved?

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  • #61
    Good. So, at least you do not deny the verses like the above from both Koran and hadith showing the severe inconsistency and IMBALANCE in islam of Allah's deterministic will that overrides the will of Man, even fatalistically.

    That is Not the Christian or Biblical view of God's sovereign will.



    Originally posted by siam View Post
    what is the Christian theory on Divine will and human will? what is the balance among the 2?

    Comment


    • #62
      Your aversion, Siam of the "infidels" scholars of the Koran betrays you and your own closed mind. Here is Ibn Khaldun, a very famous sunnite scholar, historian and historiographer of the koran and hadiths, admitting to the flawed transmission and development of the Qur'an. :-

      Ibn Khaldun comments on the incompetence of the Arabic scribes & dubious koranic transmission process at the primitive, formative stage of its development :

      "Arabic writing at the beginning of Islam was, therefore, not of the best quality nor of the greatest accuracy and excellence. It was not even of medium quality, because the Arabs possessed the savage desert attitude and were not familiar with crafts.

      "One may compare what happened to the orthography of the Qur'an on account of this situation. The men around Muhammad wrote the Qur'an in their own script which was not of a firmly established, good quality. Most of the letters were in contradiction to the orthography required by persons versed in the craft of writing…

      "Consequently, the Qur'anic orthography of the men around Muhammad was followed and became established, and the scholars acquainted with it have called attention to passages where this is noticeable.

      "No attention should be paid in this connection with those incompetent (scholars) that the men around Muhammad knew well the art of writing and that the alleged discrepancies between their writing and the principles of orthography are not discrepancies, as has been alleged, but have a reason. For instance, they explain the addition of the alif in la 'adhbahannahU 'I shall indeed slaughter him' as indication that the slaughtering did not take place (lA 'adhbahannahU).

      The addition of the ya in bi-ayydin 'with hands (power),' they explain as an indication that the divine power is perfect. There are similar things based on nothing but purely arbitrary assumptions. The only reason that caused them to (assume such things) is their belief that (their explanations) would free the men around Muhammad from the suspicion of deficiency, in the sense that they were not able to write well.They think that good writing is perfection. Thus, they do not admit the fact that the men around Muhammad were deficient in writing."

      (Muqqadimah, Ibn Khaldun, vol. 2, p.382)

      Ibn Khaldun is much more honest than you and the other islamic missionary ilk here that are obstinately deaf AND blind.

      I'll bet you dislike the quote from his famous
      Muqqadimah above, but u can't resent his honesty re: the flawed Koran ..LOL!




      Originally posted by siam View Post
      No, he does not.

      Prophet---In Islam, the term means Messenger (of God) and the "authority" comes from God---it cannot be self-designated or chosen by a group.
      (That is why groups or individuals that have self-designated or group designated "Prophets" are not considered "Muslim" even though they themselves may use the label Islam/Muslim to refer to themselves)

      The Rashidun (Rightfully Guided) Caliphs were Abu Bakr as Siddiq (632-634 CE), Umar ibn Khattab (634-644 CE), Uthman ibn Affan (644--656 CE) Ali ibn Abu Talib 656--661 CE).
      These people were the Companions of the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and after his death became the leaders of the Community (chosen by consensus). They were NOT Prophets.

      An outline of a general Islamic narrative of the compilation process is:-
      The first "mushaf"---official book form---of the Quran was done under Caliph Abu Bakr. During the time of the Prophet, the Quran was written but not in book form and Caliph Abu Bakr had someone collect all these written works along with those who had memorized the whole of the Quran and authenticated it by establishing that a particular written work had been written in the presence of the Prophet himself and there was a witness who could corroborate this. All of this was also authenticated by the memorizers (Hafiz). (At this time, the various authorized dialects were common...the Prophet was a Quraish---and spoke the Quraishi dialect but authorized other dialects, pronouncitation also....)

      By the time Caliph Uthman standardized what is now called the "Uthmani codex"---much of the work was already done---He checked everything so that each written work had 2 witnesses to corroborate that it had been written in the presence of the Prophet and where there were differences he standardized it (written mushaf) to the Quraishi form.

      Quran---the revealed (speech) from God. This speech was revealed through the Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) but not everything the Prophet spoke was "God's speech"--- that is why there is a difference between Quran (God's speech) and ahadith, the speech of the Prophet. A translation is not the "Quran" (even if the title claims it to be) but a "tafsir" because it does not have the authority of the Prophet.
      So---if a written work had a "mistake"---it is not "The Quran"---as in (authorized) God's speech. What is "God's speech" is determined through the agency of the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh).
      The Prophet could not read or write so when a revelation was written by someone, the scribe/writer often read it aloud to the Prophet for verification.
      Differences in pronunciation that caused a slight difference in meaning were also recited to the Prophet for verification and approval.

      The Islamic perspective is that the Quran we have today is the same Quran that was revealed to the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh).
      The non-Muslim scholarly consensus is that the Quran Muslims use today can be traced back to what is called the "Uthmani codex". In time, as early Quran copies are discovered---the rest of the Muslim narrative may be verified.

      Comment


      • #63
        Ibn Khaldun

        give a link.

        Here are summaries of his work and ideas..........
        https://muslimheritage.com/?s=inb+khaldun

        Ibn Khaldun is a Muslim and many of his ideas and the principles upon which he builds his theories come from the Quran.

        Comment


        • #64
          And ibn khaldun was an honest muslim who in his authoritative Muqaddimah ("Introduction") for the orthodox islamic world said that the primitive process and development of the putting together, collation and publication of the koran was FAR FROM PERFECT OR EVEN IDEAL.

          He honestly and bravely exposes the incompetence of the Arab scribes transmitting the koran in its developmental stages from its inception. Why don't you take issue with the quote I have given from the Muqaddimah?

          "Arabic writing at the beginning of Islam was, therefore, not of the best quality nor of the greatest accuracy and excellence. It was not even of medium quality, because the Arabs possessed the savage desert attitude and were not familiar with crafts.

          "One may compare what happened to the orthography of the Qur'an on account of this situation. The men around Muhammad wrote the Qur'an in their own script which was not of a firmly established, good quality. Most of the letters were in contradiction to the orthography required by persons versed in the craft of writing…

          "Consequently, the Qur'anic orthography of the men around Muhammad was followed and became established, and the scholars acquainted with it have called attention to passages where this is noticeable.

          "No attention should be paid in this connection with those incompetent (scholars) that the men around Muhammad knew well the art of writing and that the alleged discrepancies between their writing and the principles of orthography are not discrepancies, as has been alleged, but have a reason. For instance, they explain the addition of the alif in la 'adhbahannahU 'I shall indeed slaughter him' as indication that the slaughtering did not take place (lA 'adhbahannahU).

          The addition of the ya in bi-ayydin 'with hands (power),' they explain as an indication that the divine power is perfect. There are similar things based on nothing but purely arbitrary assumptions. The only reason that caused them to (assume such things) is their belief that (their explanations) would free the men around Muhammad from the suspicion of deficiency, in the sense that they were not able to write well.They think that good writing is perfection. Thus, they do not admit the fact that the men around Muhammad were deficient in writing."

          (Muqqadimah, Ibn Khaldun, vol. 2, p.382)


          Being a muslim doesnt mean that he cannot admit to the flawed and dubious development even in the primitive stage of the koran's production, publication and even re-publication, destruction and re-publication (that was under caliph no.3) without any divine sacntion.

          In doing so, ibn khaldun was more honest than you siam, hakeem and others who try to sell the non-muslims here that islam is the "truth" when it is far, far away from it!










          Originally posted by siam View Post
          Ibn Khaldun

          give a link.





          Here are summaries of his work and ideas..........
          https://muslimheritage.com/?s=inb+khaldun

          Ibn Khaldun is a Muslim and many of his ideas and the principles upon which he builds his theories come from the Quran.

          Comment


          • #65
            Doubts and questions on the Koran from more Muslims and scholars : -

            Here is the quote from a more recent, twentieth-century MUSLIM source about major problems and issues of the koranic development - Ali Dashti the muslim intellectual and thinker who dared to be honest about the factually-challenged koran..: The Muslim Ali Dashti appealed to Muslim writers and grammarians to support his claims. Here are the citations again, this time with added emphasis:-

            "Among THE MOSLEM SCHOLARS OF THE EARLY PERIOD, before bigotry and hyperbole prevailed, were some such as EBRAHIM ON-NAZZAM WHO OPENLY ACKNOWLEDGED that the arrangement and syntax of the Qor'an ARE NOT MIRACULOUS and that work of equal or greater value COULD BE PRODUCED by other God-fearing persons ...

            "Pupils and later admirers of on-Nazzam, such as Ibn Hazm and al-Khayyat, wrote in his defence, and several other leading exponents of the Mu'tazelite school shared his opinion. They saw no conflict between the theses of on-Nazzam and the statements in the Qor'an. One of their arguments is that the Qor'an is miraculous because God deprived the Prophet Mohammad's contemporaries of ability to produce the like of it; in other times and places the production of phrases resembling Qor'anic verses IS POSSIBLE AND INDEED EASY.

            "It is widely held that the blind Syrian poet Abu'l-'Ala ol-Ma'arri (368/979-450/1058) wrote his Ketab ol-fosul wa' l-Ghayat, of which a part survives, in imitation of the Qor'an. (p. 48)

            "The Qor'an contains sentences which are incomplete and not fully intelligible without the aid of commentaries; foreign words, unfamiliar Arabic words, and words used with other than the normal meaning; adjectives and verbs inflected without observance of the concords of gender and number; illogically and ungrammatically applied pronouns which sometimes have no referent; and predicates which in rhymed passages are often remote from the subjects.

            "These and other SUCH ABERRATIONS in the language have given scope to critics who deny the Qor'an's eloquence. THE PROBLEM ALSO OCCUPIED THE MINDS OF DEVOUT MOSLEMS. It forced the commentators to search for explanations and was probably one of the causes of disagreement over readings." (pp. 48-49)

            The views on the Qor'an held by Ebrahim on-Nazzam have been already mentioned, and it must be added that THEY WERE NOT HIS ALONE, but were also held by other scholars of the Mo'tazelite school such as Hesham b. 'Amr pl-Fuwati (d. ca. 218/833) and 'Abbad b. Solayman (d. ca. 250/864). ALL WERE DEVOUT BELIEVERS. They saw no inconsistency between their views and their faith.

            The great and penetrating Arab thinker Abu'l-'Ala ol-Ma'arri considered some of his own writings ON A PAR WITH THE QOR'AN. (p. 50)

            "To sum up, more than ONE HUNDRED Qor'anic aberrations from the normal rules and structure of Arabic have been noted. Needless to say, THE COMMENTATORS STROVE TO FIND EXPLANATIONS AND JUSTIFICATIONS FOR THESE IRREGULARITIES. Among them was the great commentator and philologist MAHMUD OZ-ZAMAKHSHARI (467/1075-538/1144), of whom a Moorish author wrote:

            ‘This grammar-obsessed pedant has committed a shocking error. Our task IS NOT TO MAKE THE READINGS CONFORM TO ARABIC GRAMMAR, but to take the whole of the Qor'an as it is AND MAKE THE ARABIC GRAMMAR CONFORM TO THE QOR'AN.’"

            Up to a point this argument is justifiable. A nation's great speakers and writers respect the rules of its language in so far as they avoid modes of expression which are not generally understood and popularly accepted, though they may occasionally find themselves obliged to take liberties. Among the pre-Islamic Arabs, rhetoric and poetry WERE WELL DEVELOPED and grammatical conventions WERE ALREADY ESTABLISHED. The Qor'an, being in the belief of Moslems superior to all previous products of the rhetorical genius, must contain the fewest irregularities.

            Yet the Moorish author's censure of Zamakhshari is open to criticism on the ground that it reverses the usual argument. This is that the Qor'an is God's word because it has a sublime eloquence which no human being can match, and that the man who uttered it was therefore a prophet. The Moorish author maintained that the Qor'an is faultless because it is God's word and that the problem of the grammatical errors in it MUST BE SOLVED BY CHANGING THE RULES OF ARABIC GRAMMAR.

            In other words, while most Moslems answer deniers by citing the Qor'an's eloquence as proof of Mohammad's prophethood, the Moorish author, having taken the Qor'an's divine origin and Mohammad's prophethood for granted, held all discussion of the Qor'an's wording and contents to be inadmissible. (pp. 50-51)

            It is clear that Dashti was dependent upon Muslim sources for his claims. Interestingly, as Dashti himself noted, Ebrahim On-Nazzim wasn't the only one who claimed that the Quran's arrangement and syntax are not miraculous. There were other Muslims that agreed with him, as the following sources confirm:

            Ebrahim on-Nazzam (second/eighth century) believed the Quran is not miraculous because of its style (and that work of equal or greater value could be produced by other God-fearing humans).. For this he was condemned by Qohar al-Baghdadi (fourth/eleventh century). Nazzam was later defended by other Mutazzalite scholars who did not see any contradiction between this belief and the Quran. Other Mutazzalite scholars, Amr al-Fuwati (d 218/833) and Abbad b Solayman (d 250/864) held a similar view.

            Source: Ali Dashti, 23 Years: A Study of the Prophetic Career of Muhammad [Costa Mesa, Ca. 1994; Mazda Publishers]

            These facts just show that the koran is most certainly NOT the divine revelation, nor was even divinely inspired like muslim dawagandists like to preach and propogandize to gullible and unthinking people. Admitted by even honest muslim scholars in the recent century as well as in much earlier centuries.





            Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
            And ibn khaldun was an honest muslim who in his authoritative Muqaddimah ("Introduction") for the orthodox islamic world said that the primitive process and development of the putting together, collation and publication of the koran was FAR FROM PERFECT OR EVEN IDEAL.

            He honestly and bravely exposes the incompetence of the Arab scribes transmitting the koran in its developmental stages from its inception. Why don't you take issue with the quote I have given from the Muqaddimah?

            "Arabic writing at the beginning of Islam was, therefore, not of the best quality nor of the greatest accuracy and excellence. It was not even of medium quality, because the Arabs possessed the savage desert attitude and were not familiar with crafts.

            "One may compare what happened to the orthography of the Qur'an on account of this situation. The men around Muhammad wrote the Qur'an in their own script which was not of a firmly established, good quality. Most of the letters were in contradiction to the orthography required by persons versed in the craft of writingÂ…

            "Consequently, the Qur'anic orthography of the men around Muhammad was followed and became established, and the scholars acquainted with it have called attention to passages where this is noticeable.

            "No attention should be paid in this connection with those incompetent (scholars) that the men around Muhammad knew well the art of writing and that the alleged discrepancies between their writing and the principles of orthography are not discrepancies, as has been alleged, but have a reason. For instance, they explain the addition of the alif in la 'adhbahannahU 'I shall indeed slaughter him' as indication that the slaughtering did not take place (lA 'adhbahannahU).

            The addition of the ya in bi-ayydin 'with hands (power),' they explain as an indication that the divine power is perfect. There are similar things based on nothing but purely arbitrary assumptions. The only reason that caused them to (assume such things) is their belief that (their explanations) would free the men around Muhammad from the suspicion of deficiency, in the sense that they were not able to write well.They think that good writing is perfection. Thus, they do not admit the fact that the men around Muhammad were deficient in writing."

            (Muqqadimah, Ibn Khaldun, vol. 2, p.382)


            Being a muslim doesnt mean that he cannot admit to the flawed and dubious development even in the primitive stage of the koran's production, publication and even re-publication, destruction and re-publication (that was under caliph no.3) without any divine sacntion.

            In doing so, ibn khaldun was more honest than you siam, hakeem and others who try to sell the non-muslims here that islam is the "truth" when it is far, far away from it!

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
              Doubts and questions on the Koran from more Muslims and scholars : -

              Here is the quote from a more recent, twentieth-century MUSLIM source about major problems and issues of the koranic development - Ali Dashti the muslim intellectual and thinker who dared to be honest about the factually-challenged koran..: The Muslim Ali Dashti appealed to Muslim writers and grammarians to support his claims. Here are the citations again, this time with added emphasis:-

              "Among THE MOSLEM SCHOLARS OF THE EARLY PERIOD, before bigotry and hyperbole prevailed, were some such as EBRAHIM ON-NAZZAM WHO OPENLY ACKNOWLEDGED that the arrangement and syntax of the Qor'an ARE NOT MIRACULOUS and that work of equal or greater value COULD BE PRODUCED by other God-fearing persons ...

              ......
              Provide links so I can double-check, otherwise I will view info as suspect.

              The Quran was revealed in a socio-cultural background that highly valued poetry and had a high literary sophistication.
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_poetry
              The first major poet in the pre-Islamic era is Imru' al-Qais, the last king of the kingdom of Kindah. Although most of the poetry of that era was not preserved, what remains is well regarded as the finest of Arabic poetry to date. In addition to the eloquence and artistic value, pre-Islamic poetry constitutes a major source for classical Arabic language both in grammar and vocabulary, and as a reliable historical record of the political and cultural life of the time.

              Poetry held an important position in pre-Islamic society with the poet or sha'ir filling the role of historian, soothsayer and propagandist. Words in praise of the tribe (qit'ah) and lampoons denigrating other tribes (hija') seem to have been some of the most popular forms of early poetry. The sha'ir represented an individual tribe's prestige and importance in the Arabian peninsula, and mock battles in poetry or zajal would stand in lieu of real wars. 'Ukaz, a market town not far from Mecca, would play host to a regular poetry festival where the craft of the sha'irs would be exhibited.


              The Quran is NOT poetry, nevertheless it has its own rhythm (saj)
              (Saj)--"It is a species of diction to which the Arabic language peculiarly lends itself, because of its structure, the mathematical precision of its manifold formations and the essential assonance of numerous derivatives from the same root supplying the connexion between the sound and signification of words."
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saj%27

              Apart from saj, the Quran uses many other grammatical and literary devices. It also has a ring structure, chiastic structure...etc.
              The use of these tools creates a balance in the verses and Surahs of the Quran such that changing a single word unbalances it. On the other hand, the saj and balance of Quranic surahs make them easier to memorize without error.

              The Quranic revelation was recited in public and freely for Muslims and non-Muslims to hear. It was also interactive to a degree---so, for example, when there was a complaint made that Arabic was grammatically gendered towards the male default, verses 35 of Surah 33 was revealed which specifically mentions women.---
              “For men and women who are devoted to God – believing men and women, obedient men and women, truthful men and women, steadfast men and women, humble men and women, charitable men and women, fasting men and women, chaste men and women, men and women who remember God often – God has prepared forgiveness and a rich reward.” Qur’an 33:35 On another occassion, a complaint was made that the Quranic stories are short/there is not a full story (beginning, middle, end) and the story of Prophet Joseph/Yusuf was revealed. The literary quality of the Quran was so high that some complained that the Prophet (pbuh) was a poet---the Quran answers that he is not.
              What none of the Arab listeners ever complained about was grammatical errors or low literary quality of the Quran.

              If a Quranic surah was so easy to replicate---it could have been done anytime in the 1,400 years of its existence. But not once has a single surah been replicated to the high literary sophistication of the Quran.

              Comment


              • #67
                For those interested in an analysis of just one Surah---Surah al Fatiha (the opener) here is a video link (Note---Its in English but has a a lot of Arabic)
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gja_tG3Rp88

                here is how it sounds

                Comment


                • #68
                  Dawagandist siam, u can also Google the facts written by Ali Dashti for yourself, quit being intellectually lazy .

                  I have a physical copy of Ali Dashti's book "23 Years.." so what more do u want to propogandize?!?

                  The exposure of the flawed koran is there for there for all to see that's the wonder of the digital age, the errors, aberrations and contradictions of the Koran can be seen online.



                  Originally posted by siam View Post
                  Provide links so I can double-check, otherwise I will view info as suspect.

                  The Quran was revealed in a socio-cultural background that highly valued poetry and had a high literary sophistication.
                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_poetry
                  The first major poet in the pre-Islamic era is Imru' al-Qais, the last king of the kingdom of Kindah. Although most of the poetry of that era was not preserved, what remains is well regarded as the finest of Arabic poetry to date. In addition to the eloquence and artistic value, pre-Islamic poetry constitutes a major source for classical Arabic language both in grammar and vocabulary, and as a reliable historical record of the political and cultural life of the time.

                  Poetry held an important position in pre-Islamic society with the poet or sha'ir filling the role of historian, soothsayer and propagandist. Words in praise of the tribe (qit'ah) and lampoons denigrating other tribes (hija') seem to have been some of the most popular forms of early poetry. The sha'ir represented an individual tribe's prestige and importance in the Arabian peninsula, and mock battles in poetry or zajal would stand in lieu of real wars. 'Ukaz, a market town not far from Mecca, would play host to a regular poetry festival where the craft of the sha'irs would be exhibited.


                  The Quran is NOT poetry, nevertheless it has its own rhythm (saj)
                  (Saj)--"It is a species of diction to which the Arabic language peculiarly lends itself, because of its structure, the mathematical precision of its manifold formations and the essential assonance of numerous derivatives from the same root supplying the connexion between the sound and signification of words."
                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saj%27

                  Apart from saj, the Quran uses many other grammatical and literary devices. It also has a ring structure, chiastic structure...etc.
                  The use of these tools creates a balance in the verses and Surahs of the Quran such that changing a single word unbalances it. On the other hand, the saj and balance of Quranic surahs make them easier to memorize without error.

                  The Quranic revelation was recited in public and freely for Muslims and non-Muslims to hear. It was also interactive to a degree---so, for example, when there was a complaint made that Arabic was grammatically gendered towards the male default, verses 35 of Surah 33 was revealed which specifically mentions women.---
                  “For men and women who are devoted to God – believing men and women, obedient men and women, truthful men and women, steadfast men and women, humble men and women, charitable men and women, fasting men and women, chaste men and women, men and women who remember God often – God has prepared forgiveness and a rich reward.” Qur’an 33:35 On another occassion, a complaint was made that the Quranic stories are short/there is not a full story (beginning, middle, end) and the story of Prophet Joseph/Yusuf was revealed. The literary quality of the Quran was so high that some complained that the Prophet (pbuh) was a poet---the Quran answers that he is not.
                  What none of the Arab listeners ever complained about was grammatical errors or low literary quality of the Quran.

                  If a Quranic surah was so easy to replicate---it could have been done anytime in the 1,400 years of its existence. But not once has a single surah been replicated to the high literary sophistication of the Quran.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Wikipedia has an entry on the Muslim Ali Dashti, so Ali was not a made up fictional person, like the fictionalized Jesus Christ in the Koran who was caricatured 700 years later by Muhamed and his followers, after-the-facts of documented verifiable history.

                    Here's what Wiki quotes from Ali Dashti's work:-

                    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Dashti

                    Dashti chooses reason over blind faith:

                    "Belief can blunt human reason and common sense, even in learned scholars. What is needed is more impartial study."
                    Dashti strongly denied the miracles ascribed to Muhammad by the Islamic tradition and rejected the Muslim view that the Quran is the word of God himself. Instead, he favors thorough and skeptical examination of all orthodox belief systems. Dashti argues that the Quran contains nothing new in the sense of ideas not already expressed by others. All the moral precepts of the Quran are self-evident and generally acknowledged.

                    The stories in it are taken in identical or slightly modified forms from the lore of the Jews and the Christians, whose rabbis and monks Muhammad had met and consulted on his journeys to Syria, and from memories conserved by the descendants of the peoples of Ad and Thamud.

                    Muhammad reiterated principles which mankind had already conceived in earlier centuries and many places.

                    "Confucius, Buddha, Zoroaster, Socrates, Moses, and Jesus had said similar things. Many of the duties and rites of Islam are continuous practices which the pagan Arabs had adopted from the Jews."

                    Originally posted by siam View Post
                    Provide links so I can double-check, otherwise I will view info as suspect.

                    The Quran was revealed in a socio-cultural background that highly valued poetry and had a high literary sophistication.
                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_poetry
                    The first major poet in the pre-Islamic era is Imru' al-Qais, the last king of the kingdom of Kindah. Although most of the poetry of that era was not preserved, what remains is well regarded as the finest of Arabic poetry to date. In addition to the eloquence and artistic value, pre-Islamic poetry constitutes a major source for classical Arabic language both in grammar and vocabulary, and as a reliable historical record of the political and cultural life of the time.

                    Poetry held an important position in pre-Islamic society with the poet or sha'ir filling the role of historian, soothsayer and propagandist. Words in praise of the tribe (qit'ah) and lampoons denigrating other tribes (hija') seem to have been some of the most popular forms of early poetry. The sha'ir represented an individual tribe's prestige and importance in the Arabian peninsula, and mock battles in poetry or zajal would stand in lieu of real wars. 'Ukaz, a market town not far from Mecca, would play host to a regular poetry festival where the craft of the sha'irs would be exhibited.


                    The Quran is NOT poetry, nevertheless it has its own rhythm (saj)
                    (Saj)--"It is a species of diction to which the Arabic language peculiarly lends itself, because of its structure, the mathematical precision of its manifold formations and the essential assonance of numerous derivatives from the same root supplying the connexion between the sound and signification of words."
                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saj%27

                    Apart from saj, the Quran uses many other grammatical and literary devices. It also has a ring structure, chiastic structure...etc.
                    The use of these tools creates a balance in the verses and Surahs of the Quran such that changing a single word unbalances it. On the other hand, the saj and balance of Quranic surahs make them easier to memorize without error.

                    The Quranic revelation was recited in public and freely for Muslims and non-Muslims to hear. It was also interactive to a degree---so, for example, when there was a complaint made that Arabic was grammatically gendered towards the male default, verses 35 of Surah 33 was revealed which specifically mentions women.---
                    “For men and women who are devoted to God – believing men and women, obedient men and women, truthful men and women, steadfast men and women, humble men and women, charitable men and women, fasting men and women, chaste men and women, men and women who remember God often – God has prepared forgiveness and a rich reward.” Qur’an 33:35 On another occassion, a complaint was made that the Quranic stories are short/there is not a full story (beginning, middle, end) and the story of Prophet Joseph/Yusuf was revealed. The literary quality of the Quran was so high that some complained that the Prophet (pbuh) was a poet---the Quran answers that he is not.
                    What none of the Arab listeners ever complained about was grammatical errors or low literary quality of the Quran.

                    If a Quranic surah was so easy to replicate---it could have been done anytime in the 1,400 years of its existence. But not once has a single surah been replicated to the high literary sophistication of the Quran.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      According to Islamic tradition, the Qur'an is the literal word of God provided by the archangel Gabriel which Muhammad recorded perfectly. Muslims believe that the wording of the Quranic text remains unchanged and what is available today corresponds exactly to that revealed to Muhammad

                      However, coins with Quranic writings on them dating from 685 AD (minted during the reign of Abd al-Malik), as well as inscriptions within the Dome of the Rock sanctuary (built in Jerusalem in 691 AD by Abd al-Malik), strongly indicate that the Qur'an has been subject to textual revisions. The quotations on the coins and especially in the Dome of the Rock, differ significantly in detail from that which is found in the Qur'an today.

                      Moreover, the evidence shows that a considerable portion of the Qur'an was lost and much of what is left has been substantially altered. The testimonies of Muhammad’s trusted friends and family (among them Ibn Umar, A’isha, Ubay ibn Ka’b and ’Ali Ibn Abi Talib) attest to this fact.

                      Abdullah ibn Umar, a.k.a. ‘Ibn Umar al-Khattab, explicitly states that a large part of the Qur'an was missing: “Let no one of you say that he has acquired the entire Qur'an for how does he know that it is all? Much of the Qur'an has been lost, thus let him say, ‘I have acquired of what is available.’”

                      A’isha, Muhammad’s last wife and some times referred to as the "Mother of the Believers," corroborated this adding: “During the time of the prophet, the chapter or sura of the Parties used to be two hundred verses when read. When Uthman edited the copies of the Koran, only the current (verses) were recorded” (73 verses).

                      The same statement was made by Ubay ibn Ka’b, one of the greatest of Muhammad's companions and highly regarded in the early Muslim community, as recorded in the Al-Itqān fi ‘Ulum Al-Qur’an (Itqan for brevity's sake), by Suyuti: “This famous companion asked one of the Muslims, ‘How many verses in the sura of the parties?’ He said, ‘Seventy-two or seventy-three verses.’ He (Ubay) told him, “It used to be almost equal to the csura the cow (about 286 verses) and included the verse of the stoning.’ The man asked, ‘What is the verse of the stoning?’ He said, ‘If an old man or woman committed adultery, stone them to death.’”[1]

                      ’Ali Ibn Abi Talib the Fourth Caliph of the Muslims and Muhammad's cousin and later the son-in-law, also confirmed that dozens of verses from the “Chapter of the Parties” were lost.

                      This same story and same dialogue is also recorded by Abū Muḥammad ʿAlī ibn Aḥmad ibn Saʿīd ibn Ḥazm (or just Ibn Hazm) in volume 8 of his Al-Muhalla (a.k.a. "The Sweetened" or "The Adorned Treatise"), to which he added the following note: “’Ali Ibn Abi Talib said this was a reliable chain of authority and the Zamakh-sharif also cited it in his book al-Kash-Shaf.

                      The Itqan by Suyuti also relates in its first part that other portions of the Qur'an were lost stating “Malik says that several verses of Sura 9 (Sura of Repentance) have been dropped from the beginning. Among them is ‘In the name of God, the passionate, the merciful’ because it was proven that the length of the Sura of Repentance was equal to the length of the Sura of the Cow.” This means that this chapter has lost approximately 157 verses!

                      The Itqan also states, as have other scholars, that that the copy of the Qur'an owned by Ubay and another of Muhammad's companions, Abdulla Ibn Mas’ud, included two suras called “The Hafad” and “The Khal” -- both of which are located after the sura of “The ’Asr.” Also, the Quranic copy of Ibn Mas’ud does not contain the suras of “The Hamd” and “The Mu’withatan” (Sura 113, 114).

                      So what exactly happened to some of the missing parts? Would you believe the "my dog ate it," or a similar schoolboy excuse has been presented? In volume 8 of the Al-Muhalla Ibn Hazm clearly states: "The verses of stoning and breast feeding were in the possession of A’isha in a (Quranic) copy. When Muhammad died and people became busy in the burial preparations, a domesticated animal entered in and ate it." Mustafa Husayn, who edited and reorganized the book Al-Kashshaaf by Al-Zamakhshari, confirms this claiming that the tradition came directly from both Abdulla Ibn Abi Bakr and A’isha. This same incident is mentioned by Dar-al-Qutni, al-Bazzar and al-Tabarani, on the authority of Muhammad Ibn Ishaq, who heard it from Abdulla who had himself heard it from A’isha. So I guess, "my goat ate it" would probably be more correct.

                      Examination of the oldest Qur'ans known reveal hundreds of alterations. They all have word insertions, erasures, erasures with overwriting, overwriting (without erasure), covering of larger areas, covering with overwriting, and addition of lines using a writing style from over a half century later.

                      The fact is that all of them vary significantly from each other, including some having a different number of suras, and contain thousands of variations from the Cairo edition commonly used today (speaking of which, while it was standardized in 1924, there still appears to be at least 5 versions of the Qur'an used in different parts of the Islamic world).

                      Here is a pretty good video discussing some of these issues from the Islamic scholar Shehzad Saleem, who holds a Ph.D. in the History of the Quran from the University of Wales and is a fellow at Al-Mawrid (Islamic research institute in Lahore, Pakistan)















                      1. The same source also notes that, “During the collection of the Kora, people used to come to Zayd ibn Thabit (with verses they memorized). He shunned recording any verse unless two witness attested to it. The last verse of the chapter of Repentance was found only with Khuzayma Ibn Thabit. Zayd said, ‘Record it because the apostle of God made the testimony of Khuzayma equal to the testimony of two men.’ Umar came with the verse of the stoning but it was not recorded because he was the only witness to it.” Umar would later say “If it were not that the people would say ‘Umar has added to the book of God,’ I would have recorded the verse of the stoning.”

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Here's the link to the whole of Ali Dashti's book "Bist O Seh Sal" in Persian, you can download the PDF book from here. I have rhe actual book. Then go & see the citations on the actual pages yourself siam :-

                        https://1400years.org/books/twentythreeyearsEN.pdf

                        The koran according to this Muslim thinker is NOT the word of God!

                        Humans have already duplicated it and surpassed it in sublime quality from a long time back!



                        Originally posted by siam View Post
                        Provide links so I can double-check, otherwise I will view info as suspect.

                        The Quran was revealed in a socio-cultural background that highly valued poetry and had a high literary sophistication.
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_poetry
                        The first major poet in the pre-Islamic era is Imru' al-Qais, the last king of the kingdom of Kindah. Although most of the poetry of that era was not preserved, what remains is well regarded as the finest of Arabic poetry to date. In addition to the eloquence and artistic value, pre-Islamic poetry constitutes a major source for classical Arabic language both in grammar and vocabulary, and as a reliable historical record of the political and cultural life of the time.

                        Poetry held an important position in pre-Islamic society with the poet or sha'ir filling the role of historian, soothsayer and propagandist. Words in praise of the tribe (qit'ah) and lampoons denigrating other tribes (hija') seem to have been some of the most popular forms of early poetry. The sha'ir represented an individual tribe's prestige and importance in the Arabian peninsula, and mock battles in poetry or zajal would stand in lieu of real wars. 'Ukaz, a market town not far from Mecca, would play host to a regular poetry festival where the craft of the sha'irs would be exhibited.


                        The Quran is NOT poetry, nevertheless it has its own rhythm (saj)
                        (Saj)--"It is a species of diction to which the Arabic language peculiarly lends itself, because of its structure, the mathematical precision of its manifold formations and the essential assonance of numerous derivatives from the same root supplying the connexion between the sound and signification of words."
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saj%27

                        Apart from saj, the Quran uses many other grammatical and literary devices. It also has a ring structure, chiastic structure...etc.
                        The use of these tools creates a balance in the verses and Surahs of the Quran such that changing a single word unbalances it. On the other hand, the saj and balance of Quranic surahs make them easier to memorize without error.

                        The Quranic revelation was recited in public and freely for Muslims and non-Muslims to hear. It was also interactive to a degree---so, for example, when there was a complaint made that Arabic was grammatically gendered towards the male default, verses 35 of Surah 33 was revealed which specifically mentions women.---
                        “For men and women who are devoted to God – believing men and women, obedient men and women, truthful men and women, steadfast men and women, humble men and women, charitable men and women, fasting men and women, chaste men and women, men and women who remember God often – God has prepared forgiveness and a rich reward.” Qur’an 33:35 On another occassion, a complaint was made that the Quranic stories are short/there is not a full story (beginning, middle, end) and the story of Prophet Joseph/Yusuf was revealed. The literary quality of the Quran was so high that some complained that the Prophet (pbuh) was a poet---the Quran answers that he is not.
                        What none of the Arab listeners ever complained about was grammatical errors or low literary quality of the Quran.

                        If a Quranic surah was so easy to replicate---it could have been done anytime in the 1,400 years of its existence. But not once has a single surah been replicated to the high literary sophistication of the Quran.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          According to Islamic tradition, the Qur'an is the literal word of God provided by the archangel Gabriel which Muhammad recorded perfectly. Muslims believe that the wording of the Quranic text remains unchanged and what is available today corresponds exactly to that revealed to Muhammad

                          ....
                          Thanks for the video.

                          It is important to question...without questioning we cannot build Iman (faith/trust). Blind belief is discouraged in the Quran. Sometimes, each generation needs to ask the same questions that a previous generation asked....and answered...so as to be independently convinced rather than simply following in the "traditions" of the past. This struggle/Jihad for knowledge is necessary in order to have conviction---Iman = the use of ones intellect and reason to arrive at heartfelt conviction.
                          God willing, this person will find the answers he is searching for.

                          The material that Dr Saleem (and others with the same questions) uses is all from Islamic sources. This material is open to all scholars both Muslim and non-Muslim and has been so from the beginning. The questions that this person asks are not new. Muslim scholars have seen these materials/sources, have researched and come to the conclusion that the Quran is as Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) meant it to be.

                          I am fine with that conclusion...because I do not have the time or the intellectual capacity to re-ask all these questions---for me, reading the Quran has convinced me of its wisdom and that works for me.


                          Also Note---I gave a link to Surah Al Fatiha previously.....
                          there are different readings of the word "Malik" ---so that in one case it means King and in the other it means Owner. The video link of the explanation of Al-Fatiha uses the reading of "Owner".

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            It was by questioning and critiquing islam, muhamed and the Koran that many sincere and devout Muslims have lost their faith in Islam and left Islam - especially when they have the freedoms to do so in non-islamic societies. Not only were the imams, ustazs and ulema (clergy) unable to provide good and reasonable answers to these ex-Muslims sincere questions, many just parroted the worthless islamic mantra & slogans "Bila kaif" and "walahuallam". That is- "just believe without asking how" and "only God/Allah knows best", which is a useless and unhelpful mantra to all sensible and open minded, thinking people!

                            An intelligent and intellectual muslim like Ali Dashti was able to conclude this about the inconsistencies and problems of the Koran:

                            "The Qor'an contains sentences which are incomplete and not fully intelligible without the aid of commentaries; foreign words, unfamiliar Arabic words, and words used with other than the normal meaning; adjectives and verbs inflected without observance of the concords of gender and number; illogically and ungrammatically applied pronouns which sometimes have no referent; and predicates which in rhymed passages are often remote from the subjects.

                            "These and other SUCH ABERRATIONS in the language have given scope to critics who deny the Qor'an's eloquence. THE PROBLEM ALSO OCCUPIED THE MINDS OF DEVOUT MOSLEMS. It forced the commentators to search for explanations and was probably one of the causes of disagreement over readings." (pp. 48-49)

                            The views on the Qor'an held by Ebrahim on-Nazzam have been already mentioned, and it must be added that THEY WERE NOT HIS ALONE, but were also held by other scholars of the Mo'tazelite school such as Hesham b. 'Amr pl-Fuwati (d. ca. 218/833) and 'Abbad b. Solayman (d. ca. 250/864). ALL WERE DEVOUT BELIEVERS.

                            The great and penetrating Arab thinker Abu'l-'Ala ol-Ma'arri considered some of his own writings ON A PAR WITH THE ELOQUENCE OF THE QOR'AN. (p. 50)

                            "To sum up, more than ONE HUNDRED Qor'anic aberrations from the normal rules and structure of Arabic have been noted. Needless to say, THE COMMENTATORS STROVE TO FIND EXPLANATIONS AND JUSTIFICATIONS FOR THESE IRREGULARITIES. Among them was the great commentator and philologist MAHMUD OZ-ZAMAKHSHARI (467/1075-538/1144)

                            Ali Dashti, 23 Years: A study of the Prophetic Career of Muhammad, Mazda Publishers,U.S.; 1994

                            In the 21st century, with the advent of the internet, ex-muslims (and former muslim missionary) like Abdullah Sameer can broadcast his, and others' Testimonies why Islam is absolutely NOT the truth it claims to be, UNSUITABLE for the normal people in this Day and Age.

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFhuW5z4ES4

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfH_lWtMJgY

                            Sameer's YouTube channel exposing the deceptions of the koran and islam:

                            https://www.youtube.com/user/abdullahadam

                            If islam was false and absolutely UNSUITABLE for muslims like Abdullah Sameer and many ex-muslims like him, it is desperate & hopeless for you to think we would be persuaded by your polemics and propoganda siam.






                            Originally posted by siam View Post
                            Thanks for the video.

                            It is important to question...without questioning we cannot build Iman (faith/trust). Blind belief is discouraged in the Quran. Sometimes, each generation needs to ask the same questions that a previous generation asked....and answered...so as to be independently convinced rather than simply following in the "traditions" of the past. This struggle/Jihad for knowledge is necessary in order to have conviction---Iman = the use of ones intellect and reason to arrive at heartfelt conviction.
                            God willing, this person will find the answers he is searching for.

                            The material that Dr Saleem (and others with the same questions) uses is all from Islamic sources. This material is open to all scholars both Muslim and non-Muslim and has been so from the beginning. The questions that this person asks are not new. Muslim scholars have seen these materials/sources, have researched and come to the conclusion that the Quran is as Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) meant it to be.

                            I am fine with that conclusion...because I do not have the time or the intellectual capacity to re-ask all these questions---for me, reading the Quran has convinced me of its wisdom and that works for me.


                            Also Note---I gave a link to Surah Al Fatiha previously.....
                            there are different readings of the word "Malik" ---so that in one case it means King and in the other it means Owner. The video link of the explanation of Al-Fatiha uses the reading of "Owner".

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Though Western Quranic studies is still in its infancy, "Post-orientalist" views of many scholars today incline them towards taking the Quranic "voice"/agency more seriously. The question of the Quranic compilation is no longer of much interest as it has become pretty much accepted that the Islamic history was accurate. (ex, Estelle Whelan, Adrian Brocket...etc) Some Western scholars have moved on to the linguistic and structural aspects of the Quran. (Mary Douglas, Micheal Cuyprs, Raymond Farrin...etc) and others exploring the thematic, intertextual, intratextual aspects (ex Toshihiko Istuzu, Angelicka Neuwirth...etc) The idea that the Quran borrows/repeats Jewish/Christian texts/stories is also being discarded in favor of a Quranic "dialogue" with the Quran using rhetorical/literary devices to persuade towards its paradigmatic views. Such endeavors requires a more thorough and in-depth scrutiny and analysis of the Quran than was previously done in Western academia. (Muslim scholars have already done this centuries ago)
                              Hopefully these will yield interesting new insights that will benefit both Muslims and Non-Muslims.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Not true, siam. Your appeal to such circular reasoning "internal witness' narratives for your dubious Koran falls flat on its face when Koranic studies scholars - who have objectively examined the evidence - BOTH Internal and External, have NOTHING flattering to say about koranic reliability:
                                "TO describe, still less to account for, the rise of Islam is a matter
                                of peculiar difficulty. RenanÂ’s claim that Islam was the only religion
                                to be born in the full light of history can hardly be sustained in
                                view of the fact that we have virtually no contemporary witness.

                                "Our knowledge of Muhammad is derived from the Koran, the
                                hadith or traditions, and the sira or formal biography.

                                Concerning the first - the Koran, no non-Muslim scholar has ever doubted that
                                it was his personal composition
                                , the revelations he claimed to have received
                                from God during the last twenty years of his life; it is therefore the
                                most authentic mirror of his career and doctrine, but its figurative
                                style, obscure allusions, and uncertain dating of its suras or
                                chapters
                                , make it highly unsatisfactory as a biographical source. !

                                "The second consists of an enormous mass of sayings and stories
                                attributed to the Prophet, and guaranteed by an isnad, or chain of
                                witnesses, framed on the pattern: ‘I heard from A, who heard from
                                B, who heard from C, that the Prophet saidÂ…Â’ But memory is fallible,
                                and isnads may be forged, and the desire of parties or
                                groups in later years to justify their particular beliefs
                                or practices
                                by citing the authority of Muhammad for them undoubtedly
                                produced an alarming amount of falsification.


                                To base a life of the Prophet on the hadith is to BUILD ON SAND. The sira
                                is a more valuable and reliable source, since it gives a full account of
                                MuhammadÂ’s career in narrative form, but the earliest of these
                                compositions which has come down to us, the Sirat Rasul Allah,
                                or Life of the Apostle of God, by Ibn Ishaq, was put together well
                                over a century after his death, and the portrait is already tinged
                                with miracle and legend
                                . Nor can we rely on foreign witnesses.

                                The records of the Persian kingdom perished in the Arab conquest, and
                                the oldest historical account of Muhammad by a Byzantine Greek
                                is that of the monk Theophanes, who wrote when the Prophet had
                                been dead nearly two hundred years. Every sketch of his life must
                                thus be fragmentary and defective, and the many gaps must be
                                filled by speculation.


                                J.J. Saunders, A History of Medieval Islam, Taylor & Francis e-Library, 2002, 19-20.



                                Originally posted by siam View Post
                                Though Western Quranic studies is still in its infancy, "Post-orientalist" views of many scholars today incline them towards taking the Quranic "voice"/agency more seriously. The question of the Quranic compilation is no longer of much interest as it has become pretty much accepted that the Islamic history was accurate. (ex, Estelle Whelan, Adrian Brocket...etc) Some Western scholars have moved on to the linguistic and structural aspects of the Quran. (Mary Douglas, Micheal Cuyprs, Raymond Farrin...etc) and others exploring the thematic, intertextual, intratextual aspects (ex Toshihiko Istuzu, Angelicka Neuwirth...etc) The idea that the Quran borrows/repeats Jewish/Christian texts/stories is also being discarded in favor of a Quranic "dialogue" with the Quran using rhetorical/literary devices to persuade towards its paradigmatic views. Such endeavors requires a more thorough and in-depth scrutiny and analysis of the Quran than was previously done in Western academia. (Muslim scholars have already done this centuries ago)
                                Hopefully these will yield interesting new insights that will benefit both Muslims and Non-Muslims.

                                Comment

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