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Thread: Is not the Quran a 100% preserved?

  1. #41
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    Romans 5:8 is a paradigmatic reflection relating directly to God's command to Abraham to sacrifice his son on the mountain. Was that only a test for Abraham (like muslims like to claim)? Of course Not!

    Beyond the shallow notion of a 'test'. It is a forshadowing and prophecy of what God Himself will do centuries later with the coming of His own Son - Jesus Christ, the living Word of God in the fullness of time in the World.

    God did not need Abraham's son as a sacrifice. He is much bigger than all that. Neither was He merely 'testing' Abraham's faith by demanding Isaac's sacrifice. Abraham was already tested earlier before that when he left his own city Ur of the Chaldees in obedience to the call of God. The Biblical narrative is much more clearer than your quran's in the facts.

    God is the Almighty provident One, He can amply supply over and above what He Himself demands of men and people.

    God's demand to sacrifice Abraham's son is to show that God Himself can give His own Son - Jesus the Word become flesh, to bear the penalty of death for sinners as demanded by the justice of God and His pure moral character. Death here, is both a physical cessation of life and a cessation of a personal relationship between God and Man. Jesus Christ declared that His mission for coming to the world is as the Son of Man "to GIVE His life" - as in sacrifice His life in death, as a "Ransom for many" Matthew 20:28. Jesus' mission was to sacrifice His life for the redemption and to ransom the lives of millions of souls under the judgement of God.
    It was interesting to read the Christian interpretation of this story in light of Jesus (pbuh) sacrifice. In Islam, there is no concept of orginal sin/sacrifice etc. Therefore, as a Muslim, I did not see any connection between this story and that of Prophet Jesus (pbuh)....however, if I were to connect the 2 Prophets, this is how I might interpret it...

    relationship between God and humans---In the Quran, Abraham (pbuh) discusses with his son who then consents to the plan. This shows an adult relationship in which, both father and son, are responsible for their decisions and exercise their free-will. This is generally the expectation in the Quran with regards to humanity...the message (God's will) is there for all to read, discuss and understand---so, take it or leave it. The choice is there for all humanity to exercise.

    God's power---In the Quranic story, God stops an act of criminality from being committed by his Prophet. If I were to interpret the Quranic verse regarding the crucifixion....I could interpret that God would have stopped a criminal act to happen to his Prophet if he had so wished. When the Quran says the Jews did not kill Prophet Jesus---it is declaring that Prophet Jesus was a true Prophet of God---because Deuteronomy advises Jews to kill false Prophets....and if they were successful, it would mean that they/Jews can claim he was indeed a false Prophet.....
    https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/18-20.htm

    Reciprocity---This is an important theme in the Quran. A relationship is built on at least some degree of reciprocity. In this story, the test was not just on Prophet Abraham and his son, by God...but one might say...God was also tested by Prophet Abraham. Would God allow injustice---the murder of an innocent---or stop it? In this story---God passes the test, an injustice is stopped.

    Faith---but what if it had not?....what would happen to the faith of the readers of the Quran if, in this story, an injustice had been allowed to occur?. Would we still believe in a God that allows suffering? This is a question that the Quran also asks of its readers elsewhere. It is easy to have faith when the going is good...and easier to abandon it when the going gets tough...are we among those who remain patient and steadfast when times are tough?......we must choose who we are of our own free-will.

    What of you?...would you still believe in God even if Jesus' crucifixion had no meaning?

  2. #42
    tWebber
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    Of course you won't care for Biblical history.

    U & islam have a missionary agenda to supplant, replace and eradicate the truths of the REAL Gospel. NOT the revisionist one that the koran propogandizes and props up - not by facts of history, but by sheer polemics and claims of so-called "divine revelation".

    You think a book, story or fable & fairy tale (ie. yr Koran) coming 700 years AFTER the Gospel and the New Testament- which are the verifiable historical records about Jesus Christ, can ever be more accurate than the New Testament accounts that were recorded in the lifetimes of Christ Himself and His closest Apostles & disciples?

    Don't try to be stupidly ludicrous, siam!

    No wonder 99% of ALL reputable scholars and historians of religion NEVER TAKE your Koran Seriously when they want to uncover the TRUE facts about Christ. It is such a fake book/story/fairy tale, full of internal contradictions and also external contradictions with REAL Historical facts that no thinking and rational person would buy its propaganda.

    Remember, the forgery and fake currency always comes AFTER the authentic currency, never the other way around!

    That's why the koran can never and will never be able to replace the Gospel (or true "Injil) found in the New Testament.

    By revising the facts of the kerygma in the NT, like denying the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, by claiming He never called or regarded Himself as the Son of God, etc, islam, the koran and muslim dawagandists and missionaries like yourself are the TRUE culprits and practitioners of Revisionism of the historical facts. Don't point blame at western scholarship like u thoughtlessly do.

    Hiding behind claims that the koran & sunnah are not sources or authorities of historical facts are only lame, stupid and cowardly excuses made by u and dawagandists. And this clearly subverts the korans own credibility big time!

    And THAT'S WHY many reputable scholars don't care for the propaganda claims, man-made polemics and revised interpolations of the koran, plain and simple.

    Justice..ur faith in an islamic justice system will only result in the degeneration of society and nations as we know it. For 1400 years this koranic system has abysmally FAILED TO CREATE just, prosperous and blessed societies or nations. Just ask yrself, WHY are muslims from the 3rd & 4th worlds, backward and degenerate, from the middle east, north Africa and the muslim world are rushing to the west to escape all kinds of hardships, persecutions and discrimination there?

    If the islamic system and sharia are blessings from "god", WHY don't they, and we today, see it in so many islamic countries? WHY are muslims all running away from islamic states for the "greener pastures" of the so-called "kafir" western Nations, whom islam & the koran vilified and insults as "unclean infidels"!?

    Why don't these muslim refugees stay back in the blessings of the islamic states where they originate from?!?

    Because there is NO REAL Justice that serves humanity in all these muslim states, truth be told. That's why the muslims are all running to the west by the Millions. That is the REAL truth.

    1400 years of suffering and injustice from islam is bad enough. It proves the bankruptcy, tyranny, terrorism and falsehood of islam. And this is nicely summarized here by a native Arab whose original homeland is in the middle east and knows the islamic system intimately -

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o0m9nEafBE4



















    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    Bible----I do not particularly care if the Bible is preserved or not...that is a matter that concerns Christians (and/or Jews). If there is wisdom in the Bible, I will be happy to concede it is from God and embrace it....and I would do the same if this wisdom came from the Tao te Ching, the Sutras, the Gita, the Greeks, Persians or Egyptians. Knowledge/Wisdom is from (One) God and it does not matter what "label" it falls under.

    Quran---Having read the Quran many times,...I am certain that the Quranic wisdom is suitable for my lifestyle and understandable for my intellect. I am fully satisfied with the Quran and have no doubts.

    Hadith---It is best to have a scholar deal with ahadiths as this is a field that takes years of study. They are an important heritage of Islam but at the same time, they are easier to manipulate and abuse. When it comes to grading the truth value between hadith and Quran...I would go with the Quran. The Quran is a direct communication from God to me personally...and to every individual reader.

    Abraham/sacrifice---(Jewish) Bible (genesis 1-19) says...
    "An angel of God called to Abraham a second time out of heaven and said, “By Myself have I sworn, says God, because you have done this thing and not withheld from Me your son, your only son, that I will bless you without fail, and without fail multiply your descendants as the stars in heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore, and your seed shall inherit the gate of its enemies. And all the nations of the earth shall bless themselves through your seed, as a consequence of your having hearkened to My voice.”
    https://www.sefaria.org/Genesis.22.1...ng=bi&aliyot=0

    The consequence of passing the test was that the descendants of Abraham would multiply become a blessings for all the nations of the earth.....

    The Quran explains it in these verses...a)Surah 37 100-111, b)Surah 2 122-129, c)Surah 22 verse 36, 37
    a) Abraham has a dream...he discusses this dream with his son. The son advices him to follow the dream and they both agree to do so. The son prostrates for the sacrifice when God stops him saying the dream has been fulfilled.
    b) After this test, the Kaaba is built by Abraham and his son as a place of sanctuary and prayer. (Abraham prays to God)
    c) This explains the principle that animals are to be ritually slaughtered for food because it is not the blood or flesh that reaches God but the intentions of the heart.

    There are interesting aspects that are different in the Quran---1) there is no mention of a ram 2) the son makes his own choice. The test is for both father and son. 3) The building of the Kaaba links Muslims/Islam with Prophet Abraham.
    The use of animals for food is a privileged given by God and humans need to be grateful to God. 4) God sees our hearts. intentions are important--not just actions.
    another interesting point is that from the Quranic perspective---"ritual sacrifice" began with Abel and Cain with the resulting fight between brothers leading to bloodshed. It is at this point that God decreed the "law" and disputes were to be settled by law/justice and not bloodshed.

    If the concept of "Justice" is one that can adjudicate disputes in order to promote peace and discourage bloodshed---or one that advocates the homicide/suicide of an innocent instead of the sinner/criminal...then I will most certainly pick the Quranic concept of Justice!!!

  3. #43
    tWebber
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    The crucifixion and death of Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago are not at all meaningless. It is such only to deniers of history and the original words and authentic, verifiable words of Jesus Christ Himself in the best and earliest records and documentation. Only the koran, islam and muslims who take their blind cues from it's twisted revisionism and hypocritical, after-the-facts misrepresentation, facetiously hide behind the polemical claims and conjecture ("divine revelation") to spread their baseless deceptions.

    Christians believe in the death and crucifixion of Jesus Christ NOT because of the reasons you assert. Or the theological speculations you claim.

    Rather, the reality and historical fact of Jesus’ death 2,000 years ago is based upon what Jesus Himself DECLARED about what he will undergo and personally experience at the hands of religious leaders and foreigners in HIS TIME and witnessed by His followers themselves, recorded in the 3 Synoptic Gospels, whose documentary validity are verified by credentialed historians and reputable Biblical scholars.

    These Synoptic records, are existentially earlier to the Koran by over 600 years, as do all the orthodox Christian creeds bear witness to this fact of Christ’s words about His death by His enemies from the first till the fifth centuries.

    Additionally, when Peter the leading apostle and follower of Jesus, tried to reject this idea of Jesus dying at the hands of His enemies, and tried to PREVENT Jesus from being taken to his death, guess what? Jesus called him “Satan”..! For trying to prevent the will of God from taking place.

    Matthew 16:21-23:-

    21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he MUST BE KILLEDand on the third day be raised to life.

    22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”

    23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

    Mark 8:31-33:-

    31 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again.
    32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.
    33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

    Luke 18:31-33:-

    31 Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled.
    32 He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him;
    33 they will flog him AND KILL HIM.
    On the third day he will rise again.”

    Muslims and the koran are just like Peter, a follower of Jesus – who tried to stop Jesus from being taken and going to His allegedly “unfair and despicable” death (according to the koran and muslims). And, just like Peter, Jesus Christ sternly rebukes both Muslims, Islam and the Koran as “SATAN”! For trying to deny His death and crucifixion, over 2,000 years ago.

    23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

    Because clearly, Jesus Christ’s dying and resurrection 2,000 years ago was essential to Jesus Christ’s mission and God’s plan and will for the salvation and well-being of humanity in Jesus’ own words.

    When the koran and islam revise the mission of Christ to deny His death at the hands of His enemies, 2000 years ago, making ridiculous claims that Jesus’ mission was to ‘declare and prophesy the coming of Muhammad’ after Jesus’ coming (QS61/6 etc), they practice the worst kind of revisionism and commit unjustifiable violence against the Scriptures possible, and are to be unapologetically exposed as frauds.









    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    It was interesting to read the Christian interpretation of this story in light of Jesus (pbuh) sacrifice. In Islam, there is no concept of orginal sin/sacrifice etc. Therefore, as a Muslim, I did not see any connection between this story and that of Prophet Jesus (pbuh)....however, if I were to connect the 2 Prophets, this is how I might interpret it...

    relationship between God and humans---In the Quran, Abraham (pbuh) discusses with his son who then consents to the plan. This shows an adult relationship in which, both father and son, are responsible for their decisions and exercise their free-will. This is generally the expectation in the Quran with regards to humanity...the message (God's will) is there for all to read, discuss and understand---so, take it or leave it. The choice is there for all humanity to exercise.

    God's power---In the Quranic story, God stops an act of criminality from being committed by his Prophet. If I were to interpret the Quranic verse regarding the crucifixion....I could interpret that God would have stopped a criminal act to happen to his Prophet if he had so wished. When the Quran says the Jews did not kill Prophet Jesus---it is declaring that Prophet Jesus was a true Prophet of God---because Deuteronomy advises Jews to kill false Prophets....and if they were successful, it would mean that they/Jews can claim he was indeed a false Prophet.....
    https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/18-20.htm

    Reciprocity---This is an important theme in the Quran. A relationship is built on at least some degree of reciprocity. In this story, the test was not just on Prophet Abraham and his son, by God...but one might say...God was also tested by Prophet Abraham. Would God allow injustice---the murder of an innocent---or stop it? In this story---God passes the test, an injustice is stopped.

    Faith---but what if it had not?....what would happen to the faith of the readers of the Quran if, in this story, an injustice had been allowed to occur?. Would we still believe in a God that allows suffering? This is a question that the Quran also asks of its readers elsewhere. It is easy to have faith when the going is good...and easier to abandon it when the going gets tough...are we among those who remain patient and steadfast when times are tough?......we must choose who we are of our own free-will.

    What of you?...would you still believe in God even if Jesus' crucifixion had no meaning?

  4. #44
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    The crucifixion and death of Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago are not at all meaningless. It is such only to deniers of history and the original words and authentic, verifiable words of Jesus Christ Himself in the best and earliest records and documentation. Only the koran, islam and muslims who take their blind cues from it's twisted revisionism and hypocritical, after-the-facts misrepresentation, facetiously hide behind the polemical claims and conjecture ("divine revelation") to spread their baseless deceptions.

    Christians believe in the death and crucifixion of Jesus Christ NOT because of the reasons you assert. Or the theological speculations you claim.

    Rather, the reality and historical fact of Jesus’ death 2,000 years ago is based upon what Jesus Himself DECLARED about what he will undergo and personally experience at the hands of religious leaders and foreigners in HIS TIME and witnessed by His followers themselves, recorded in the 3 Synoptic Gospels, whose documentary validity are verified by credentialed historians and reputable Biblical scholars.


    ....
    Faith in God---my question was---what is your bottom line for your faith in One God? is it conditional on some concepts such as the meaning of crucifixion or would it remain even without?

  5. Amen Dan Zebiri amen'd this post.
  6. #45
    tWebber
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    Faith - IT does NOT occur in a vacuum, perhaps your muslim faith does.

    Christian faith for example, is in response to a primary trait in the character of God - called LOVE. And that Loving character expresses itself that elicits a response to Him. And God has expressed the pinnacle of His love to us in ways that we can begin to understand and grasp, and this is accounted for in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    Christians have faith in a real, living God Who acts.

    Our faith is in response to the one, true God showing and giving to us His favour. Our Faith is the personal and deliberate response to the acts of God, Who first loved us, unconditionally and prophetically.

    The pinnacle of Gods love is declared in Romans 5:8 (which muslims like you prejudicially and mindlessly regard with disdain):

    But GOD shows His love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

    I have already proven from the earliest Synoptic Gospel records, from Matthew, Mark and Luke (which all pre-date your koran) how Jesus Christ Himself prophesied His death, which subsequently took place over 2,000 years ago outside Jerusalem, and this perfectly was fulfilled then, coming to pass because Christs death, and resurrection, were totally in line and accordance with Gods plan for the Son of Man.

    The Son of Man (Jesus) did not come to be serve, but to serve and to sacrifice (give) His life as a RANSOM (Redemption) for many people
    Matthew 20:28

    Our faith is not what we work for, to attain and to earn the favour of God/Allah like the muslims do. Christians were already shown, been given and are the recipients of Gods divine and unconditional love, this is called GRACE. Something not found in the Koran.

    1 John 4:18,19 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. Fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

    We love, BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVE US.

    This kind of love is not at all twisted or perverse, like you insultingly insinuate in your previous post.

    That is why Jesus Christs words declared in John 3:16-18 are the favorite Scriptures of Christians that we memorize and steadfastly share with unbelievers like yourself.

    For GOD So loved the world, that He GAVE His one and ONLY Son, that whosoever believes in Him (this Son of God), should not perish but have everlasting life.

    For GOD did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be SAVED through him.

    Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, But whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has NOT believed in the name of the only Son of God.







    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    Faith in God---my question was---what is your bottom line for your faith in One God? is it conditional on some concepts such as the meaning of crucifixion or would it remain even without?

  7. #46
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    The notion of "Allah's love" is at best contradictory and outrightly inconsistent in the Koran.

    Below are more concrete examples of the twisted notion of "love" in the Koran.
    Allah's "love" is obviously conditional upon fulfilling certain conditions stipulated below.

    1. God does NOT LOVE those who overstep the boundaries or limits.

    2:190 Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth NOT transgressors [la uhibb al-mua'tadeen]

    5:90 O ye who Believe! Make not unlawful the good things which Allah hath made lawful for you, but commit no excess: For Allah loves NOT those given to excess [la uhibb al-mua'tadeen]

    7:55 Call on your Lord with humility and in private: For Allah loveth NOT those who trespass beyond bounds. [la uhibb al-mua'tadeen]

    2. God does NOT love the al-fasideen - the corrupt.

    2:205 When he turns his back, his aim everywhere is to spread mischief through the earth and destroy crops and cattle. But Allah loveth [hubb] not mischief. [alfsad]

    5:67 The Jews say: "Allah's hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleases. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them We have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgement. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loves [hubb] NOT those who do mischief [al-mufasideen]

    28:77 "But seek, with the (wealth) which Allah has bestowed on thee, the Home of the Hereafter, nor forget thy portion in this world: But do thou good, as Allah has been good to thee, and seek not (occasions for) mischief in the land: For Allah loves [hubb] NOT those who do mischief." [al-mufasideen].

    It is not possible, according to the Qur'an, for men to actually experience God's love in their very own hearts such as a son's experience of his father's love.

    God is indeed called the "Loving One" (al- Wadud) in the Qur'an but only on two occasions (Surahs 11.90, 85.14). This statement, however, does not imply the depth of love in the nature of God such as is found in the Biblical declaration "God is love" (1 John 4:8). Instead one of the great theologians in Islamic history,) al-Ghazzali, painfully informs us that the expresssion "the Loving One" means FAR LESS than the title would seem to indicate.

    In his work on the names of God in the Qur'an entitled Al-Maqsad Al-Asna he states that this this title in the Qur'an is a lesser one, for example, than "the Merciful" (ar-Rahim) - an opinion with which we find ourselves compelled to agree, for God is called "the Merciful" over two hundred times in the Qur'an but "the Loving One" only twice. Al-Ghazzali explains this love as consisting solely of objective acts of kindness and expressions of approval. He denies that there is any subjectivity in the love of God, that is, that God feels any love in his own heart towards mankind.

    "He remains above the feeling of love". (Al-Maqsad Al-Asna, p.91).

    My earlier post also showed how Allah in the Koran MISLEADS People astray, and once misled by the Allah of Islam, there is no hope AT ALL for the salvation of these misled people for recovery.

    This casts a huge doubt upon and questions the integrity of the islamic "Allah"s so-called love. A truly loving God would never mislead his creatures astray - as is declared in the Quran.

    The orthodox islamic Hadith confirms the above and siam will do well to study these references with an open mind before responding with polemics and more misrepresentation about the Biblical facts regarding Jesus Christ...:

    In the context of this hadith - which is very consistent with the teaching of the Qur'an about the attitude of Allah towards mankind (Surah 5:18) - we see very clearly the total lack of sentiment about genuine love:

    "Verily Allah created Adam and then rubbed his back with His right hand and took out a progeny from him and said: I created these for Paradise and with the actions of the inmates of Paradise which they will do. Afterwards he rubbed his back with His hand and took out a progeny from him and said: I CREATED THESE FOR HELL and with the actions of the inmates of Hell which they will do".
    (Mishkat al-Masabih, Vol.3, p.107)

    This hadith confirms the Islamic teaching that Allah sends his creatures to hell, as well as to heaven. This does not speak to me of a truly loving God, in any way.

  8. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    The notion of "Allah's love" is at best contradictory and outrightly inconsistent in the Koran.

    Below are more concrete examples of the twisted notion of "love" in the Koran.
    Allah's "love" is obviously conditional upon fulfilling certain conditions stipulated below.

    1. God does NOT LOVE those who overstep the boundaries or limits.
    ....

    It is not possible, according to the Qur'an, for men to actually experience God's love in their very own hearts such as a son's experience of his father's love.

    God is indeed called the "Loving One" (al- Wadud) in the Qur'an but only on two occasions (Surahs 11.90, 85.14). This statement, however, does not imply the depth of love in the nature of God such as is found in the Biblical declaration "God is love" (1 John 4:8). Instead one of the great theologians in Islamic history,) al-Ghazzali, painfully informs us that the expresssion "the Loving One" means FAR LESS than the title would seem to indicate.

    In his work on the names of God in the Qur'an entitled Al-Maqsad Al-Asna he states that this this title in the Qur'an is a lesser one, for example, than "the Merciful" (ar-Rahim) - an opinion with which we find ourselves compelled to agree, for God is called "the Merciful" over two hundred times in the Qur'an but "the Loving One" only twice. Al-Ghazzali explains this love as consisting solely of objective acts of kindness and expressions of approval. He denies that there is any subjectivity in the love of God, that is, that God feels any love in his own heart towards mankind....
    Love---a cascade of chemical reactions?....sexual attraction?...feelings of deep affection?...obsession?....there are many ways to understand and define "love".
    IMO, If we understand "Love" as care and nurturing---then God's love for humanity/creation is clear and evident in every moment of time...(no sacrifice--human or divine, necessary to make it evident).
    The Tao te Ching says it well...
    The Tao gives birth to all beings,
    nourishes them
    maintains them,
    cares for them,
    comforts them,
    protects them,
    takes them back to itself,
    creating without possessing,
    acting without expecting
    guiding without interfering
    That is why the love of Tao
    is in the very nature of things
    (Tao=God)

    Reciprocity= God "loves" humanity---that is evident---what can humanity do to return that love?...

    Rumi is a globally favourite (Muslim) poet who speaks about "Love of God"
    Rabia Al Basri and Ibn Arabi are others who have deeply thought on the subject.

  9. #48
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    Well, tragically quoting from an UNislamic source like the "Tao te Ching" which are Chinese doctrines with occultic divination elements embedded essentially into it, does not serve your cause to persuade the true lovingkindness of Allah, the God of islam as taught in the koran.

    I actually quoted in context, the ayats and verses of the koran directly pertaining to God's "love" in islam and we find that Allah does not "nurture" many segments of society and humanity. Because he "loves not the sinners," nor the trespassers, nor the unclean, nor the rebellious, and many more.

    He loves but only very selectively, not just that, he only loves quite conditionally certain groups of people.

    Unlike the God of the Bible, particularly in the Gospels and the NT, God shows ie. Demonstrates concretely, His own love toward us, in that WHILE we are still sinners, rebellious, unclean and disobedient, He loved us, UNCONDITIONALLY.

    Jesus Christ Himself expounded on this, in His famous Parable of the Prodigal son in the synoptics.

    We find the so-called "love of Allah" truly inconsistent and contradictory, when on the Sunnah of islam we find narratives like:-

    "Verily Allah created Adam and then rubbed his back with His right hand and took out a progeny from him and said: I created these for Paradise and with the actions of the inmates of Paradise which they will do. Afterwards he rubbed his back with His hand and took out a progeny from him and said: I CREATED THESE FOR HELL and with the actions of the inmates of Hell which they will do".
    (Mishkat al-Masabih, Vol.3, p.107)

    Also, verses from the koran like:-

    2:190 Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah LOVES NOT transgressors [la uhibb al-mua'tadeen]

    5:90 O ye who Believe! Make not unlawful the good things which Allah hath made lawful for you, but commit no excess: For Allah LOVES NOT those given to excess [la uhibb al-mua'tadeen]

    7:55 Call on your Lord with humility and in private: For Allah LOVES NOT those who trespass beyond bounds. [la uhibb al-mua'tadeen]

    5:67 Amongst them We have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgement. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah LOVES NOT those who do mischief [al-mufasideen]

    You say that "Allah loves.." but the koranic verses above and many more, contradict your claim explicitly.

    Actually the verses both from the koran and hadith shown above, only prove the utterly deterministic trait of the koran's Allah. He sends souls of people to BOTH paradise AND to hell!

    The above is from both al-Bukhari and the Mishkat hadith sources of islam.

    Taken to its natural and logical conclusion, there is really no free will in islam. All has already been pre-determined by Allah and absolutely NOTHING can change the FATE of humanity. This is the Qada and Qadar of Allah - the fatalistic determinism forced by Allah upon all mankind.

    Allah said: "I CREATED THESE (PEOPLE) FOR HELL and WITH THE ACTIONS of the inmates of Hell which THEY WILL DO".. quoted from the Mishkat source above.

    Determinism like that from a deity, is nothing other than fatalistic control over people.

    It has nothing to do, and can have nothing to do, with a loving, kind and compassionate God. The likes of which is supremely manifested in the Unconditional and imperious Love of the Heavenly Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    He not only "nurtures, cares, comforts, nourishes, protects" etc humanity.

    He sent His living Word, the Logos, the Kalimatullah, Jesus Christ to come himself to live amongst humanity.

    And to express the traits and character of the One, true living GOD to us, in a way that we could begin to understand Him. Ultimately by redeeming us in the ultimate loving sacrifice of the Atonement.

    Now, THAT is a real, true love which is involved and sacrificial, and incomparable.



    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    Love---a cascade of chemical reactions?....sexual attraction?...feelings of deep affection?...obsession?....there are many ways to understand and define "love".
    IMO, If we understand "Love" as care and nurturing---then God's love for humanity/creation is clear and evident in every moment of time...(no sacrifice--human or divine, necessary to make it evident).
    The Tao te Ching says it well...
    The Tao gives birth to all beings,
    nourishes them
    maintains them,
    cares for them,
    comforts them,
    protects them,
    takes them back to itself,
    creating without possessing,
    acting without expecting
    guiding without interfering
    That is why the love of Tao
    is in the very nature of things
    (Tao=God)

    Reciprocity= God "loves" humanity---that is evident---what can humanity do to return that love?...

    Rumi is a globally favourite (Muslim) poet who speaks about "Love of God"
    Rabia Al Basri and Ibn Arabi are others who have deeply thought on the subject.

  10. #49
    tWebber
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    U said God loves UNCONDITIONALLY in Christianity---
    but
    Christians believe there is hell right? there would not be hell if this love was unconditional....?....

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    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    U said God loves UNCONDITIONALLY in Christianity---
    but
    Christians believe there is hell right? there would not be hell if this love was unconditional....?....
    The offer of salvation is given to all mankind freely and unconditionally. People who go to hell do so because they reject God's freely offered gift of salvation. God's love being unconditional is not inconsistent with a world where some people go to hell, given that unconditional love does not trump man's God-given ability to reject it (free will). If it did it would not be love any more.

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