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Is not the Quran a 100% preserved?

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  • #31
    49 Say: "O men! I am (sent) to you only to give a clear warning:
    50 "Those who believe and work righteousness for them is forgiveness and a sustenance most generous.
    51 "But those who strive against Our Signs to frustrate them they will be Companions of the Fire."
    Never did We send an apostle or a prophet before thee but when he framed a desire Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but Allah will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in and Allah will confirm (and establish) His Signs: for Allah is full of
    knowledge and wisdom:
    53 That He may make the suggestions thrown in by Satan but a trial for those in whose hearts is a disease and who are hardened of heart: verily the wrongdoers are in a schism far (from the Truth):
    54 And that those on whom knowledge has been bestowed may learn that the (Qur'an) is the Truth from thy Lord and that they may believe therein and their hearts may be made humbly (open) to it: for verily Allah is the Guide of those who believe to the
    Straight Way.

    55 Those who reject Faith will not cease to be in doubt concerning (Revelation) until the Hour (of Judgment) comes suddenly upon them or there comes to them the Penalty of a Day of Disaster.
    56 On that Day the Dominion will be that of Allah: He will judge between them: so those who believe and work righteous deeds will be in Gardens of Delight.

    In order to understand these verses...On has to comprehend that Satan does not have power in Islamic theology---only God has power.
    The only "power" Satan has, is one that humans give to it of their own free will.
    These verses CONFIRM this concept.

    just read the Quran b4 you quote....it will save us both time.....
    https://quran.com/22/49-59?translations=20

    Comment


    • #32
      That's just only half the real story you are telling, siam. That "Allah is the guide of those who believe.."

      For your islamic Allah is not only the guide of the believers, he is ALSO the MISGUIDER and misleader of those who go astray!

      Many people do not realize that the Quran not only describes Allah as the best of all deceivers, but it also depicts him as a misleader who causes people to be deceived and misled from the path of salvation.

      Many are also unaware of the fact that two of the 99 names of Allah happen to "Al-Hadi" (“the guide”), i.e. the one who guides, and "Al-Mudill" (“the misguider/misleader”), e.g. the one who MISLEADS and causes to go astray.

      The Muslim scripture contains passage after passage stating that it is Allah who makes people to go astray, since he is free to mislead and disgrace whomever he so desires:

      Say (O Muhammad): "O Allah! Possessor of the kingdom, You give the kingdom to whom You will, and You take the kingdom from whom You will, and You endue with honour whom You will, and You humiliate whom You will. In Your Hand is the good. Verily, You are Able to do all things.” S. 3:26 Hilali-Khan

      Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? Allah has cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom Allah HAS MADE to GO ASTRAY? And he whom Allah HAS MADE to go ASTRAY, you will NEVER FIND for him any way of guidance. S. 4:88 Hilali-Khan

      And We sent not a Messenger except with the language of his people, in order that he might make (the Message) clear for them. Then Allah MISLEADS WHOM HE WILLS and guides whom He wills. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. S. 14:4 Hilali-Khan

      And he whom Allah guides, he is led aright; but he whom He SENDS ASTRAY for such you will find no Auliya' (helpers and protectors, etc.), besides Him, and We shall gather them together on the Day of Resurrection on their faces blind, dumb and deaf, their abode will be Hell; whenever it abates, We shall increase for them the fierceness of the Fire. S. 17:97 Hilali-Khan

      “… Thus Allah leads Astray WHOM HE WILLS and guides whom He wills. And none can know the hosts of your Lord but He. And this (Hell) is nothing else than a (warning) reminder to mankind.” S. 74:31 Hilali-Khan

      The Quran further says that there is no guide for the one whom Allah has misled:

      A day when ye will turn to flee, having no preserver from Allah: and he whom Allah sendeth astray, for him there is no guide. And verily Joseph brought you of old clear proofs, yet ye ceased not to be in doubt concerning what he brought you till, when he died, ye said: Allah will not send any messenger after him. Thus Allah DECEIVETH him who is a prodigal and a doubter. S. 40:33-34 Pickthall

      It is ironic that Allah is described as doing the very thing which Satan is said to do, namely, mislead people from the path!

      Hast thou not regarded those who assert that they believe in what has been sent down to thee, and what was sent down before thee, desiring to take their disputes to idols, yet they have been commanded to disbelieve in them? But SATAN desires to lead them ASTRAY into far error. S. 4:60 Arberry

      So by saying it is people who give Satan the power to mislead them is just disingenuous, for the Koran states that Allah / islamic "God" can use Shaitan / satan to mislead the unbelievers away too.

      Hence, it is your own Allah who gives to Satan the power to misguide people. Allah's name, among the 99 names is "The Greatest Misleader (or Misguider)" - al-mudill!

      One can safely say that one of the ways that this misleading by God happens is in surah 22/52 etc. Satan is capable - by Allah's leave, to insert satanic verses, sentences and words into the revelation that came down from the ummul kitab or "mother" of the book (Koran).

      Even though it is thought that Allah corrects or abrogate/cancels those satanic verses of the Koran, the fact is that Satan can do so with the same consent and permission of Allah, Who is the misguider and misleader on mankind. Allah using Shaytan/satan to do the misleading and misguiding.

      So, here it is Allah/God who gives Satan the power to misguide people away. And those whom Allah has sent astray, with satan's help, NO BODY and No one can help to restore those people back to the right path.

      Just read all those verses shown above, not just the ones you selected or cherry & hand picked to prove a point. It would save every one time.








      Originally posted by siam View Post
      49 Say: "O men! I am (sent) to you only to give a clear warning:
      50 "Those who believe and work righteousness for them is forgiveness and a sustenance most generous.
      51 "But those who strive against Our Signs to frustrate them they will be Companions of the Fire."
      Never did We send an apostle or a prophet before thee but when he framed a desire Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but Allah will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in and Allah will confirm (and establish) His Signs: for Allah is full of
      knowledge and wisdom:
      53 That He may make the suggestions thrown in by Satan but a trial for those in whose hearts is a disease and who are hardened of heart: verily the wrongdoers are in a schism far (from the Truth):
      54 And that those on whom knowledge has been bestowed may learn that the (Qur'an) is the Truth from thy Lord and that they may believe therein and their hearts may be made humbly (open) to it: for verily Allah is the Guide of those who believe to the
      Straight Way.

      55 Those who reject Faith will not cease to be in doubt concerning (Revelation) until the Hour (of Judgment) comes suddenly upon them or there comes to them the Penalty of a Day of Disaster.
      56 On that Day the Dominion will be that of Allah: He will judge between them: so those who believe and work righteous deeds will be in Gardens of Delight.

      In order to understand these verses...On has to comprehend that Satan does not have power in Islamic theology---only God has power.
      The only "power" Satan has, is one that humans give to it of their own free will.
      These verses CONFIRM this concept.

      just read the Quran b4 you quote....it will save us both time.....
      https://quran.com/22/49-59?translations=20

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
        That's just only half the real story you are telling, siam. That "Allah is the guide of those who believe.."

        For your islamic Allah is not only the guide of the believers, he is ALSO the MISGUIDER and misleader of those who go astray!

        Many people do not realize that the Quran not only describes Allah as the best of all deceivers, but it also depicts him as a misleader who causes people to be deceived and misled from the path of salvation.

        Many are also unaware of the fact that two of the 99 names of Allah happen to "Al-Hadi" (“the guide”), i.e. the one who guides, and "Al-Mudill" (“the misguider/misleader”), e.g. the one who MISLEADS and causes to go astray.

        The Muslim scripture contains passage after passage stating that it is Allah who makes people to go astray, since he is free to mislead and disgrace whomever he so desires:

        Say (O Muhammad): "O Allah! Possessor of the kingdom, You give the kingdom to whom You will, and You take the kingdom from whom You will, and You endue with honour whom You will, and You humiliate whom You will. In Your Hand is the good. Verily, You are Able to do all things.” S. 3:26 Hilali-Khan

        Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? Allah has cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom Allah HAS MADE to GO ASTRAY? And he whom Allah HAS MADE to go ASTRAY, you will NEVER FIND for him any way of guidance. S. 4:88 Hilali-Khan

        And We sent not a Messenger except with the language of his people, in order that he might make (the Message) clear for them. Then Allah MISLEADS WHOM HE WILLS and guides whom He wills. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. S. 14:4 Hilali-Khan

        And he whom Allah guides, he is led aright; but he whom He SENDS ASTRAY for such you will find no Auliya' (helpers and protectors, etc.), besides Him, and We shall gather them together on the Day of Resurrection on their faces blind, dumb and deaf, their abode will be Hell; whenever it abates, We shall increase for them the fierceness of the Fire. S. 17:97 Hilali-Khan

        “… Thus Allah leads Astray WHOM HE WILLS and guides whom He wills. And none can know the hosts of your Lord but He. And this (Hell) is nothing else than a (warning) reminder to mankind.” S. 74:31 Hilali-Khan

        The Quran further says that there is no guide for the one whom Allah has misled:

        A day when ye will turn to flee, having no preserver from Allah: and he whom Allah sendeth astray, for him there is no guide. And verily Joseph brought you of old clear proofs, yet ye ceased not to be in doubt concerning what he brought you till, when he died, ye said: Allah will not send any messenger after him. Thus Allah DECEIVETH him who is a prodigal and a doubter. S. 40:33-34 Pickthall

        It is ironic that Allah is described as doing the very thing which Satan is said to do, namely, mislead people from the path!

        Hast thou not regarded those who assert that they believe in what has been sent down to thee, and what was sent down before thee, desiring to take their disputes to idols, yet they have been commanded to disbelieve in them? But SATAN desires to lead them ASTRAY into far error. S. 4:60 Arberry

        So by saying it is people who give Satan the power to mislead them is just disingenuous, for the Koran states that Allah / islamic "God" can use Shaitan / satan to mislead the unbelievers away too.

        Hence, it is your own Allah who gives to Satan the power to misguide people. Allah's name, among the 99 names is "The Greatest Misleader (or Misguider)" - al-mudill!

        One can safely say that one of the ways that this misleading by God happens is in surah 22/52 etc. Satan is capable - by Allah's leave, to insert satanic verses, sentences and words into the revelation that came down from the ummul kitab or "mother" of the book (Koran).

        Even though it is thought that Allah corrects or abrogate/cancels those satanic verses of the Koran, the fact is that Satan can do so with the same consent and permission of Allah, Who is the misguider and misleader on mankind. Allah using Shaytan/satan to do the misleading and misguiding.

        So, here it is Allah/God who gives Satan the power to misguide people away. And those whom Allah has sent astray, with satan's help, NO BODY and No one can help to restore those people back to the right path.

        Just read all those verses shown above, not just the ones you selected or cherry & hand picked to prove a point. It would save every one time.
        As I have explained many times b4---if u want proper context---see the verses b4 and after the one quoted and the meaning falls into place. If u do not do so---then those verses r out of context.

        Satan has no power---God did not give power to Satan---only permission. Humanity has (God-given) free-will and this free-will gives humanity the power to choose to obey God or listen to Satan. Therefore, it is humanity that gives "power" to Satan ---not God. (This story is told in the Quran)

        God has power---if he had so willed, we would all be "believers"/the faithful---but God chooses to let us/humanity decide. That is why there is no coercion in religion--because we/humanity are supposed to choose with our own free-will. Once we have chosen/exercised free-will--God can choose to lead us to the straight path or not. (S5 v44-50)

        Human free-will and its importance is explained in S2 v25-27) in particular---v 26 (partial) Those who believe know that it is truth from their lord; But those who reject faith say "what means God by this similitude?" By it he causes many to stray, and many he leads into the right path; But he causes not to stray except those who forsake the path
        ----It is humanity that first needs to choose their path--to go astray or to go the correct way.

        and humanity is free to change their mind any time they choose to---that being the whole purpose of free-will---as explained in S.13 v11 God does not change a people until they first change themselves....
        From the Quranic perspective---our existence on this earth is a test and we pass or fail it with the exercise of our (God-given) free-will. That is the reason the Quran is a text---it gives us the option to embrace it or reject it---to read it with gratitude or to read it with suspicion.

        The key to reading the Quran is given at the beginning of each Surah with the words ---In the name of God the most compassionate, the most merciful. If we unlock the meaning of the text with this key---we can gain wisdom...but if we choose not to---thats our loss.....

        Comment


        • #34
          And u siam, by ignoring ALL the other ayats and verses I listed, just conveniently try to hoodwink and "pull the wool" over the eyes of everyone here. That actually your Allah ie. the Allah of the Koran and islam IS NOT AT ALL A LOVING OR A MERCIFUL God, by obvious and any measure!

          The verses I has listed to you, and they are not out of context like u like to allege. Prove that there really is NO LOVE, NO COMPASSION & NO MERCY of Allah in islam. Those are just empty sounds and meaningless terms-and useless claims that do not carry any weight of what they claim to be: so-called "loving, compassionate and merciful"!

          How can your short-sighted Allah, and Muhamed ever have ANY love, mercy and compassion at all, in the light of the following verses of the koran? :

          "Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? ALLAH HAS CAST THEM BACK (to disbelief) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom ALLAH HAS MADE TO GO ASTRAY? And he whom ALLAH HAS MADE TO GO ASTRAY, you WILL NEVER FIND for him any way of guidance." S. 4:88 Hilali-Khan

          And We sent not a Messenger except with the language of his people, in order that he might make (the Message) clear for them. Then ALLAH MISLEADS WHOM HE WILLS and guides whom He wills. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. S. 14:4 Hilali-Khan

          And he whom Allah guides, he is led aright; but he whom HE SENDS ASTRAY for such you will find no Auliya' (helpers and protectors, etc.), besides Him, and We shall gather them together on the Day of Resurrection on their faces blind, dumb and deaf, their abode will be Hell; whenever it abates, We shall increase for them the fierceness of the Fire. S. 17:97 Hilali-Khan

          … Thus ALLAH LEADS ASTRAY WHOM HE WILLS and guides whom He wills. And none can know the hosts of your Lord but He. And this (Hell) is nothing else than a (warning) reminder to mankind.” S. 74:31 Hilali-Khan

          The Quran further says that there is no guide for the one whom Allah has misled:

          A day when ye will turn to flee, having no preserver from Allah: and he whom Allah sendeth astray, for him there is no guide. And verily Joseph brought you of old clear proofs, yet ye ceased not to be in doubt concerning what he brought you till, when he died, ye said: Allah will not send any messenger after him. Thus ALLAH DECEIVES him who is a prodigal and a doubter. S. 40:33-34 Pickthall

          It is ironic that Allah is described as doing the very thing which Satan is said to do, namely, mislead people from the path!

          Hast thou not regarded those who assert that they believe in what has been sent down to thee, and what was sent down before thee, desiring to take their disputes to idols, yet they have been commanded to disbelieve in them? But SATAN desires to lead them ASTRAY into far error. S. 4:60 Arberry

          So, to summarise how empty, meaningless and truly WORTHLESS your (and muslim dawagandists') claims about the so-called "love of Allah/God" is.

          Islamic Allah does all the following, in the relevant context of the Koran and sunna of orthodox islam:-

          1) ALLAH CASTS DISBELIEVERS OF islam BACK to disbelief, QS 4/88.

          2) ALLAH MISLEADS WHOMSOEVER HE WILLS, QS 14/4,

          3) ALLAH MAKES PEOPLE TO GO ASTRAY QS 4/88,

          4) THERE IS ABSOLUTELY No Hope FOR ALL THOSE PEOPLE WHOM ALLAH LEADS ASTRAY, 4/88,

          5) AFTER ALLAH LEADS PEOPLE ASTRAY, HE FORBIDS & PREVENTS ANYONE TO COME TO THESE PEOPLES HELP, Whom he himself has led astray - WHAT A MERCILESS "GOD" This is! QS 17/97

          6) THIS MERCILESS & LOVELESS ALLAH THEN PREPARES AN EXTRA HOT HELL FOR THESE PEOPLE TO SUFFER & BE DESTROYED IN! 17/97,

          7) THIS SAME FALSELY CLAIMED "LOVING ALLAH", DECEIVES THE DOUBTERS AND REBELLIOUS - TO Send them astray! QS 40/33-34.

          WHAT KIND of loving or compassionate God this is?!? Described per the koranic verses shown above?? And there are many more of such verses from yr koran that flatly contradict yr naive and stupendous claims of a loving Allah of islam.. what a sham and what a shame, really!

          The so-called mercy and compassion of islam's Allah CANNOT hold even a quarter of a candle to the genuinely loving God and Heavenly Father of the Bible, IN Truth.

          Where true mercy, compassion and UNCONDITIONAL LOVE was demonstrated in the verses like John 3:16, 17 -

          "For GOD SO LOVED the World that He GAVE His one and only Son, that whosoever believes in Him, SHOULD NOT PERISH but have Everlasting Life".

          "For GOD did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through Him."

          And from Romans 5: 8 -

          "But God SHOWS HIS LOVE FOR US In that while we WERE STILL SINNERS, Christ died for us."





          Originally posted by siam View Post
          As I have explained many times b4---if u want proper context---see the verses b4 and after the one quoted and the meaning falls into place. If u do not do so---then those verses r out of context.

          Satan has no power---God did not give power to Satan---only permission. Humanity has (God-given) free-will and this free-will gives humanity the power to choose to obey God or listen to Satan. Therefore, it is humanity that gives "power" to Satan ---not God. (This story is told in the Quran)

          God has power---if he had so willed, we would all be "believers"/the faithful---but God chooses to let us/humanity decide. That is why there is no coercion in religion--because we/humanity are supposed to choose with our own free-will. Once we have chosen/exercised free-will--God can choose to lead us to the straight path or not. (S5 v44-50)

          Human free-will and its importance is explained in S2 v25-27) in particular---v 26 (partial) Those who believe know that it is truth from their lord; But those who reject faith say "what means God by this similitude?" By it he causes many to stray, and many he leads into the right path; But he causes not to stray except those who forsake the path
          ----It is humanity that first needs to choose their path--to go astray or to go the correct way.

          and humanity is free to change their mind any time they choose to---that being the whole purpose of free-will---as explained in S.13 v11 God does not change a people until they first change themselves....
          From the Quranic perspective---our existence on this earth is a test and we pass or fail it with the exercise of our (God-given) free-will. That is the reason the Quran is a text---it gives us the option to embrace it or reject it---to read it with gratitude or to read it with suspicion.

          The key to reading the Quran is given at the beginning of each Surah with the words ---In the name of God the most compassionate, the most merciful. If we unlock the meaning of the text with this key---we can gain wisdom...but if we choose not to---thats our loss.....

          Comment


          • #35
            Since we are on the subject of Quranic "preservation", this is a very pertinent and relevant discussion on today's Quran's relationship with the Egyptian version standardised in 1924 by the authorities, with impact on the majority of Qurans in the world today.

            https://youtu.be/xRkUDjF1RfE

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
              Since we are on the subject of Quranic "preservation", this is a very pertinent and relevant discussion on today's Quran's relationship with the Egyptian version standardised in 1924 by the authorities, with impact on the majority of Qurans in the world today.

              https://youtu.be/xRkUDjF1RfE
              A variant reading is very different from a variant text. The text that we have today is already confirmed to be aligned with what the "West" refers to as the Uthamani codex. There were variant readings confirmed by the Prophet (pbuh) himself. This is clear from Muslim history.(... So its not some big secret or conspiracy)
              In the English language...a British person will pronounce or spell words differently than an American or an Australian...etc. Variations exist. Likewise with the Quranic readings.

              Its a complicated subject.....but here is some info....
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qira%27at

              In Islam, Qira'at (literally "recitations" or "readings") refers to variants in the recitation of the Quran. There are ten different recognised schools of qira'at, each one deriving its name from a noted Quran reciter or "reader" (Qari). Each reciter recited to two narrators whose narrations are known as riwaya (transmissions) and named after its primary narrator. Each Rawi (singular of riwaya) has turuq (transmission lines) with more variants created by notable students of the master who recited them and named after the student of the master. Passed down from Turuq are wujuh: the wajh of so-and-so from the tariq of so-and-so. There are about twenty riwayat and eighty turuq.
              ...
              Differences between Qira'at are slight and include differences in stops, vowels, and sometimes letters.Recitation should be in accordance with rules of pronunciation, intonation, and caesuras established by Muhammad and first recorded during the eighth century CE
              ....
              By the mid-eighth century CE, a large number of scholars were considered specialists in the field of recitation. Most of their methods were authenticated by chains of reliable narrators, ending with Muhammad. The methods which were supported by a large number of reliable narrators on each level of their chain were called mutawaatir, and were considered the most accurate. Methods in which the number of narrators were few (or only one) on any level of the chain were known as shaadhdh. Some scholars of the following period began the practice of designating a set number of individual scholars from the previous period as the most noteworthy and accurate...


              In Islamic history, the oral transmission of the Quran is just as important (...or perhaps more important) as the textual transmission because many Muslims memorize the Quran from cover to cover and an even larger portion memorize large portions of it.

              (Hafiz (/ˈhɑːfɪz/; Arabic: حافظ‎, romanized: ḥāfiẓ, حُفَّاظ, pl. ḥuffāẓ, حافظة f. ḥāfiẓa), literally meaning "guardian" or "memorizer", depending on the context, is a term used by Muslims for someone who has completely memorized the Quran. Hafiza is the female equivalent.) Quran competitions are very common even today.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                And u siam, by ignoring ALL the other ayats and verses I listed, just conveniently try to hoodwink and "pull the wool" over the eyes of everyone here. That actually your Allah ie. the Allah of the Koran and islam IS NOT AT ALL A LOVING OR A MERCIFUL God, by obvious and any measure!

                The verses I has listed to you, and they are not out of context like u like to allege. Prove that there really is NO LOVE, NO COMPASSION & NO MERCY of Allah in islam. Those are just empty sounds and meaningless terms-and useless claims that do not carry any weight of what they claim to be: so-called "loving, compassionate and merciful"!

                How can your short-sighted Allah, and Muhamed ever have ANY love, mercy and compassion at all, in the light of the following verses of the koran? :

                "Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? ALLAH HAS CAST THEM BACK (to disbelief) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom ALLAH HAS MADE TO GO ASTRAY? And he whom ALLAH HAS MADE TO GO ASTRAY, you WILL NEVER FIND for him any way of guidance." S. 4:88 Hilali-Khan


                And from Romans 5: 8 -

                "But God SHOWS HIS LOVE FOR US In that while we WERE STILL SINNERS, Christ died for us."
                U r quoting out of context. I will quote with context, the first on your list of misquoted verses---4:88... to show you.
                The hypocrites mentioned here are the Muslim deserters of the battle of Uhud (approx 624). (Keep in mind---During wartime..betrayal can become the crime of treason which is a serious offence.)
                These verses deal with the dilemma of how to deal with deserters during wartime.

                4:88. Why should you be divided into 2 parties about the hypocrites?
                God has cast them off for their deeds. Would you guide those whom God has thrown out of the way?
                For those whom God has cast out of the way, never shall you find the way.

                4:89 They but wish that you should reject faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing.
                So take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God (from what is forbidden)
                But, if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them where ever you find them; and take no friends or helpers from their ranks.

                4:90 Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a peace treaty or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you or fighting their own people.
                If God had pleased, he could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you and fight you not, and instead send you peace then God has opened no way (for you to war against them)

                4:91 Others you will find wish to obtain security from you as well as their own people: Every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb: if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees of) peace as well as restraining their hands, seize them and slay them where ever you get them: In their case we have provided you with a clear argument against them.

                The Quran is particular about Justice and Law. Here it lays out the rules that those (Muslim) deserters 1) who rebel against you 2) who double-cross both sides are to be treated as "treason" however, those deserters 1) who wish for peace/neutrality by immigrating to/seeking asylum from fighting 2) those who give up arms sincerely seeking peace---are to be left alone.



                ....but Christianity?...if we were to follow your romans 5:8...both law and justice go out the window---instead "sinners" are set free and the innocent are crucified in their place---why?...because of some twisted notion of "Love"?
                Last edited by siam; 01-02-2020, 12:42 AM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Muslims usually peddle polemics and propaganda about the preservation of the Bible and QurÂ’an. Christians are regularly told that the Bible, and its message, have been corrupted and that only the QurÂ’an is perfectly preserved. Here are what some Islamic missionaries say:

                  The text of the Qur'an is entirely reliable. It has been as it is, unaltered, unedited, not tampered with in any way, since the time of its revelation. (M. Fethullah Gulen, Questions this Modern Age Puts to Islam, London: Truestar, 1993, p.58)

                  (The Qur'an) was memorised by Mohammed and then dictated to his companions, and written down by scribes, who cross-checked it during his lifetime. Not one word of its 114 chapters (suras) have ever been changed over the centuries. (Understanding Islam and the Muslims, The Australian Federation of Islamic Councils Inc. (pamphlet) Nov. 1991)

                  No other book in the world can match the Qur'an ... The astonishing fact about this book of ALLAH is that it has remained unchanged, even to a dot, over the last fourteen hundred years. ... No variation of text can be found in it. You can check this for yourself by listening to the recitation of Muslims from different parts of the world. (Basic Principles of Islam, Abu Dhabi, UAE: The Zayed Bin Sultan Al Nahayan Charitable Humanitarian Foundation, 1996, p. 4)

                  Immediately memorized and recorded by large numbers of his companions, (the quran) was passed on in exactly the same form by thousands of Muslims generation after generation up until the present day. ... There is only one version of the Qur'an; the same revealed words continue to be read, recited and memorized in their original Arabic language by Muslims throughout the world. (Saheeh International, Clear Your Doubts About Islam: 50 Answers to Common Questions, Saudi Arabia: Dar Abul-Qasim, 2008, pp. 28-29)

                  Question 1: Did Muhammad perfectly memorise the QurÂ’an?

                  No, and the Hadith and QurÂ’an are very clear about this.

                  Narrated Aisha: The Prophet heard a man reciting the Qur'an in the mosque and said, "May Allah bestow His Mercy on him, as he has reminded me of such-and-such verses of such a Surah." (Sahih al-Bukhari: vol. 6, bk. 61, no. 556; also Sahih Muslim: bk. 4, no. 1720)
                  Narrated Abdullah ibn Mas'ud: ... (Muhammad said) I am only a human being and I forget just as you do; so when I forget, remind me ... (Sunan Abu Dawud: bk. 3, no. 1015; also Sahih al-Bukhari: vol. 1, bk. 8, no. 394)

                  We will make you recite, [O Muhammad], and you will not forget, except what Allah should will ... (Qur'an 87:6-7, Saheed International)
                  We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it ... (Qur'an 2:106, Saheed International)

                  These verses from the QurÂ’an and Hadith are all referring to how Muhammad forgot the QurÂ’an, therefore Muslim leaders are exaggerating when they say Muhammad memorised the QuÂ’ran perfectly.

                  Question 2: Did Muhammad simply recite the QurÂ’an with no editing?


                  Again the answer is NO. The Hadith is very clear that sometimes Muhammad would say a verse and then say it again with an edited version.
                  Narrated Al-Bara: There was revealed:

                  “Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah.” (Qur’an 4.95)
                  The Prophet said, "Call Zaid for me and let him bring the (writing) board, the inkpot and the scapula bone (the pen) ..." Then he said, "Write: ‘Not equal are those Believers who sit...’", and at that time 'Amr bin Um Maktum, the blind man was sitting behind the Prophet. He said, "O Allah's Apostle! What is your order for me (as regards the above verse) as I am a blind man?" So, instead of the above verse, the following verse was revealed:

                  “Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) except those who are disabled and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah.” (Qur’an 4.95) (Sahih al-Bukhari: vol. 6, bk. 61, no. 512; also Sahih Muslim: bk. 20, no. 4676-4677)
                  Here we see an earlier version of verse 4:95 being edited to now include “except those who are disabled”. This type of change happened so often to the Qur’an that the Meccans used it as a reason to reject Muhammad.
                  And when We exchange a verse in the place of another verse - and God knows very well what he is sending down - they (the Meccans) say (to Muhammad), "You are simply inventing this". (Qur'an 16:101)

                  Therefore, when Muslim leaders say the Qur'an was simply recited by Muhammad and then written down they are wrong. The Islamic history shows that sometimes verses were fluid and edited to a final form.

                  Question 3: Did Muhammad only have one version of the QurÂ’an?

                  Again the answer is NO. The Hadith records that Muhammad taught different versions of the Qur'an to his companions.

                  Narrated Umar bin Al-Khattab: I heard Hisham bin Hakim reciting Surat Al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle and I listened to his recitation and noticed that he recited in several different ways which Allah's Apostle had not taught me. I was about to jump over him during his prayer, but I controlled my temper and when he had completed his prayer, I put his upper garment around his neck and seized him by it and said, "Who taught you this Surat which I heard you reciting ?" He replied, "Allah's Apostle taught it to me". I said, "You have told a lie, for Allah's Apostle taught it to me in a different way from yours". So I dragged him to Allah's Apostle and said, "I heard this person reciting Surat Al-Furqan in a way which you haven't taught me!" On that Allah's Apostle said, "Release him (Umar) recite, O Hisham!" Then he recited in the same way I heard him reciting. Then Allah's Apostle said, "It was revealed in this way", and added, "Recite, O Umar", I recited it as he had taught me. Allah's Apostle then said, "It was revealed in this way. This Qur'an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever is easier for you." (Sahih al-Bukhari: vol. 6, bk. 61, no. 514)

                  Umar bin Al-Khattab and Hisham bin Hakim were from the same tribe, therefore, this difference was not a matter of dialect.

                  Narrated Ibn Mas'ud: I heard a person reciting a (Quranic) verse in a certain way, and I had heard the Prophet reciting the same verse in a different way. So I took him to the Prophet and informed him of that but I noticed the sign of disapproval on his face, and then he said, "Both of you are correct, so don't differ, for the nations before you differed, so they were destroyed." (Sahih al-Bukhari: vol. 4, bk. 56, no. 682)

                  These hadiths show the companions of Muhammad learned the QuÂ’ran in different ways from Muhammad. Therefore, Muslim leaders are wrong when they say there is only one version of the Qur'an. From the very beginning there were already several versions. Such that Uthman had to order their destruction, redaction and re-publication - with No mandate from his Allah! Even that was removed by the Egyptian muslims in 1924 and reproduced & republished for islamic education for the twentieth century and beyond.

                  The notion that today's quran is the same as the one 'revealed' 1,400 years ago, claimed by a 'man' called Muhammad, is only naive bunk. The quran is no more than a man-made product with a documentary chronology and textual history, having undergone many editions and redacting procedures at the hands of human beings, and re-published without the approval of islam's own deity! Uthman's 'recension', the destruction of all quran variants by Uthman's command and the 1924 Egyptian version are just three obvious examples.

                  It is really nothing more but baseless and amusing propoganda that fails to stand the test of objective factual scrutiny! It is also revisionism of the historical facts and desperately seeks to supplant two more ancient faiths - Christianity and Judaism that preceded islam.

                  Thats why one of its central claims is that it's a so-called 'final revelation' to replace the previous Scriptures, with no convincing evidence but only empty claims to support it.


                  -
                  Originally posted by siam View Post
                  A variant reading is very different from a variant text. The text that we have today is already confirmed to be aligned with what the "West" refers to as the Uthamani codex. There were variant readings confirmed by the Prophet (pbuh) himself. This is clear from Muslim history.(... So its not some big secret or conspiracy)
                  In the English language...a British person will pronounce or spell words differently than an American or an Australian...etc. Variations exist. Likewise with the Quranic readings.

                  Its a complicated subject.....but here is some info....
                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qira%27at

                  In Islam, Qira'at (literally "recitations" or "readings") refers to variants in the recitation of the Quran. There are ten different recognised schools of qira'at, each one deriving its name from a noted Quran reciter or "reader" (Qari). Each reciter recited to two narrators whose narrations are known as riwaya (transmissions) and named after its primary narrator. Each Rawi (singular of riwaya) has turuq (transmission lines) with more variants created by notable students of the master who recited them and named after the student of the master. Passed down from Turuq are wujuh: the wajh of so-and-so from the tariq of so-and-so. There are about twenty riwayat and eighty turuq.
                  ...
                  Differences between Qira'at are slight and include differences in stops, vowels, and sometimes letters.Recitation should be in accordance with rules of pronunciation, intonation, and caesuras established by Muhammad and first recorded during the eighth century CE
                  ....
                  By the mid-eighth century CE, a large number of scholars were considered specialists in the field of recitation. Most of their methods were authenticated by chains of reliable narrators, ending with Muhammad. The methods which were supported by a large number of reliable narrators on each level of their chain were called mutawaatir, and were considered the most accurate. Methods in which the number of narrators were few (or only one) on any level of the chain were known as shaadhdh. Some scholars of the following period began the practice of designating a set number of individual scholars from the previous period as the most noteworthy and accurate...


                  In Islamic history, the oral transmission of the Quran is just as important (...or perhaps more important) as the textual transmission because many Muslims memorize the Quran from cover to cover and an even larger portion memorize large portions of it.

                  (Hafiz (/ˈhɑːfɪz/; Arabic: حافظ‎, romanized: ḥāfiẓ, حُفَّاظ, pl. ḥuffāẓ, حافظة f. ḥāfiẓa), literally meaning "guardian" or "memorizer", depending on the context, is a term used by Muslims for someone who has completely memorized the Quran. Hafiza is the female equivalent.) Quran competitions are very common even today.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Your totally wrong notion shows itself through your thoughtless and glib but bald statements, again as usual, siam..

                    Who says 'law and justice go out the window'.? Your knee-jerk reply only betrays how abysmal and shallow your understanding of justice, morality and mercy really is.

                    Romans 5:8 is a paradigmatic reflection relating directly to God's command to Abraham to sacrifice his son on the mountain. Was that only a test for Abraham (like muslims like to claim)? Of course Not!

                    Beyond the shallow notion of a 'test'. It is a forshadowing and prophecy of what God Himself will do centuries later with the coming of His own Son - Jesus Christ, the living Word of God in the fullness of time in the World.

                    God did not need Abraham's son as a sacrifice. He is much bigger than all that. Neither was He merely 'testing' Abraham's faith by demanding Isaac's sacrifice. Abraham was already tested earlier before that when he left his own city Ur of the Chaldees in obedience to the call of God. The Biblical narrative is much more clearer than your quran's in the facts.

                    God is the Almighty provident One, He can amply supply over and above what He Himself demands of men and people.

                    God's demand to sacrifice Abraham's son is to show that God Himself can give His own Son - Jesus the Word become flesh, to bear the penalty of death for sinners as demanded by the justice of God and His pure moral character. Death here, is both a physical cessation of life and a cessation of a personal relationship between God and Man. Jesus Christ declared that His mission for coming to the world is as the Son of Man "to GIVE His life" - as in sacrifice His life in death, as a "Ransom for many" Matthew 20:28. Jesus' mission was to sacrifice His life for the redemption and to ransom the lives of millions of souls under the judgement of God. - not to 'prophesy muhamad's coming' as the quran glibly and falsely claims (as in 61/6 etc).

                    So indeed, Christ died for the sins of mankind EVEN while we were still sinners, incapable of doing any good or saving ourselves, because we cannot.

                    That is the pinnacle of the manifestation of God's true love. Not the contradictory, selective and inconsistent 'love/mercy/compassion of Allah' mouthed by the quran in various chapters.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                      Your totally wrong notion shows itself through your thoughtless and glib but bald statements, again as usual, siam..

                      Who says 'law and justice go out the window'.? Your knee-jerk reply only betrays how abysmal and shallow your understanding of justice, morality and mercy really is.

                      Romans 5:8 is a paradigmatic reflection relating directly to God's command to Abraham to sacrifice his son on the mountain. Was that only a test for Abraham (like muslims like to claim)? Of course Not!

                      Beyond the shallow notion of a 'test'. It is a forshadowing and prophecy of what God Himself will do centuries later with the coming of His own Son - Jesus Christ, the living Word of God in the fullness of time in the World.

                      God did not need Abraham's son as a sacrifice. He is much bigger than all that. Neither was He merely 'testing' Abraham's faith by demanding Isaac's sacrifice. Abraham was already tested earlier before that when he left his own city Ur of the Chaldees in obedience to the call of God. The Biblical narrative is much more clearer than your quran's in the facts.

                      God is the Almighty provident One, He can amply supply over and above what He Himself demands of men and people.

                      God's demand to sacrifice Abraham's son is to show that God Himself can give His own Son - Jesus the Word become flesh, to bear the penalty of death for sinners as demanded by the justice of God and His pure moral character. Death here, is both a physical cessation of life and a cessation of a personal relationship between God and Man. Jesus Christ declared that His mission for coming to the world is as the Son of Man "to GIVE His life" - as in sacrifice His life in death, as a "Ransom for many" Matthew 20:28. Jesus' mission was to sacrifice His life for the redemption and to ransom the lives of millions of souls under the judgement of God. - not to 'prophesy muhamad's coming' as the quran glibly and falsely claims (as in 61/6 etc).

                      So indeed, Christ died for the sins of mankind EVEN while we were still sinners, incapable of doing any good or saving ourselves, because we cannot.

                      That is the pinnacle of the manifestation of God's true love. Not the contradictory, selective and inconsistent 'love/mercy/compassion of Allah' mouthed by the quran in various chapters.
                      Bible----I do not particularly care if the Bible is preserved or not...that is a matter that concerns Christians (and/or Jews). If there is wisdom in the Bible, I will be happy to concede it is from God and embrace it....and I would do the same if this wisdom came from the Tao te Ching, the Sutras, the Gita, the Greeks, Persians or Egyptians. Knowledge/Wisdom is from (One) God and it does not matter what "label" it falls under.

                      Quran---Having read the Quran many times,...I am certain that the Quranic wisdom is suitable for my lifestyle and understandable for my intellect. I am fully satisfied with the Quran and have no doubts.

                      Hadith---It is best to have a scholar deal with ahadiths as this is a field that takes years of study. They are an important heritage of Islam but at the same time, they are easier to manipulate and abuse. When it comes to grading the truth value between hadith and Quran...I would go with the Quran. The Quran is a direct communication from God to me personally...and to every individual reader.

                      Abraham/sacrifice---(Jewish) Bible (genesis 1-19) says...
                      "An angel of God called to Abraham a second time out of heaven and said, “By Myself have I sworn, says God, because you have done this thing and not withheld from Me your son, your only son, that I will bless you without fail, and without fail multiply your descendants as the stars in heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore, and your seed shall inherit the gate of its enemies. And all the nations of the earth shall bless themselves through your seed, as a consequence of your having hearkened to My voice.”
                      https://www.sefaria.org/Genesis.22.1...ng=bi&aliyot=0

                      The consequence of passing the test was that the descendants of Abraham would multiply become a blessings for all the nations of the earth.....

                      The Quran explains it in these verses...a)Surah 37 100-111, b)Surah 2 122-129, c)Surah 22 verse 36, 37
                      a) Abraham has a dream...he discusses this dream with his son. The son advices him to follow the dream and they both agree to do so. The son prostrates for the sacrifice when God stops him saying the dream has been fulfilled.
                      b) After this test, the Kaaba is built by Abraham and his son as a place of sanctuary and prayer. (Abraham prays to God)
                      c) This explains the principle that animals are to be ritually slaughtered for food because it is not the blood or flesh that reaches God but the intentions of the heart.

                      There are interesting aspects that are different in the Quran---1) there is no mention of a ram 2) the son makes his own choice. The test is for both father and son. 3) The building of the Kaaba links Muslims/Islam with Prophet Abraham.
                      The use of animals for food is a privileged given by God and humans need to be grateful to God. 4) God sees our hearts. intentions are important--not just actions.
                      another interesting point is that from the Quranic perspective---"ritual sacrifice" began with Abel and Cain with the resulting fight between brothers leading to bloodshed. It is at this point that God decreed the "law" and disputes were to be settled by law/justice and not bloodshed.

                      If the concept of "Justice" is one that can adjudicate disputes in order to promote peace and discourage bloodshed---or one that advocates the homicide/suicide of an innocent instead of the sinner/criminal...then I will most certainly pick the Quranic concept of Justice!!!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                        Romans 5:8 is a paradigmatic reflection relating directly to God's command to Abraham to sacrifice his son on the mountain. Was that only a test for Abraham (like muslims like to claim)? Of course Not!

                        Beyond the shallow notion of a 'test'. It is a forshadowing and prophecy of what God Himself will do centuries later with the coming of His own Son - Jesus Christ, the living Word of God in the fullness of time in the World.

                        God did not need Abraham's son as a sacrifice. He is much bigger than all that. Neither was He merely 'testing' Abraham's faith by demanding Isaac's sacrifice. Abraham was already tested earlier before that when he left his own city Ur of the Chaldees in obedience to the call of God. The Biblical narrative is much more clearer than your quran's in the facts.

                        God is the Almighty provident One, He can amply supply over and above what He Himself demands of men and people.

                        God's demand to sacrifice Abraham's son is to show that God Himself can give His own Son - Jesus the Word become flesh, to bear the penalty of death for sinners as demanded by the justice of God and His pure moral character. Death here, is both a physical cessation of life and a cessation of a personal relationship between God and Man. Jesus Christ declared that His mission for coming to the world is as the Son of Man "to GIVE His life" - as in sacrifice His life in death, as a "Ransom for many" Matthew 20:28. Jesus' mission was to sacrifice His life for the redemption and to ransom the lives of millions of souls under the judgement of God.
                        It was interesting to read the Christian interpretation of this story in light of Jesus (pbuh) sacrifice. In Islam, there is no concept of orginal sin/sacrifice etc. Therefore, as a Muslim, I did not see any connection between this story and that of Prophet Jesus (pbuh)....however, if I were to connect the 2 Prophets, this is how I might interpret it...

                        relationship between God and humans---In the Quran, Abraham (pbuh) discusses with his son who then consents to the plan. This shows an adult relationship in which, both father and son, are responsible for their decisions and exercise their free-will. This is generally the expectation in the Quran with regards to humanity...the message (God's will) is there for all to read, discuss and understand---so, take it or leave it. The choice is there for all humanity to exercise.

                        God's power---In the Quranic story, God stops an act of criminality from being committed by his Prophet. If I were to interpret the Quranic verse regarding the crucifixion....I could interpret that God would have stopped a criminal act to happen to his Prophet if he had so wished. When the Quran says the Jews did not kill Prophet Jesus---it is declaring that Prophet Jesus was a true Prophet of God---because Deuteronomy advises Jews to kill false Prophets....and if they were successful, it would mean that they/Jews can claim he was indeed a false Prophet.....
                        https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/18-20.htm

                        Reciprocity---This is an important theme in the Quran. A relationship is built on at least some degree of reciprocity. In this story, the test was not just on Prophet Abraham and his son, by God...but one might say...God was also tested by Prophet Abraham. Would God allow injustice---the murder of an innocent---or stop it? In this story---God passes the test, an injustice is stopped.

                        Faith---but what if it had not?....what would happen to the faith of the readers of the Quran if, in this story, an injustice had been allowed to occur?. Would we still believe in a God that allows suffering? This is a question that the Quran also asks of its readers elsewhere. It is easy to have faith when the going is good...and easier to abandon it when the going gets tough...are we among those who remain patient and steadfast when times are tough?......we must choose who we are of our own free-will.

                        What of you?...would you still believe in God even if Jesus' crucifixion had no meaning?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Of course you won't care for Biblical history.

                          U & islam have a missionary agenda to supplant, replace and eradicate the truths of the REAL Gospel. NOT the revisionist one that the koran propogandizes and props up - not by facts of history, but by sheer polemics and claims of so-called "divine revelation".

                          You think a book, story or fable & fairy tale (ie. yr Koran) coming 700 years AFTER the Gospel and the New Testament- which are the verifiable historical records about Jesus Christ, can ever be more accurate than the New Testament accounts that were recorded in the lifetimes of Christ Himself and His closest Apostles & disciples?

                          Don't try to be stupidly ludicrous, siam!

                          No wonder 99% of ALL reputable scholars and historians of religion NEVER TAKE your Koran Seriously when they want to uncover the TRUE facts about Christ. It is such a fake book/story/fairy tale, full of internal contradictions and also external contradictions with REAL Historical facts that no thinking and rational person would buy its propaganda.

                          Remember, the forgery and fake currency always comes AFTER the authentic currency, never the other way around!

                          That's why the koran can never and will never be able to replace the Gospel (or true "Injil) found in the New Testament.

                          By revising the facts of the kerygma in the NT, like denying the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, by claiming He never called or regarded Himself as the Son of God, etc, islam, the koran and muslim dawagandists and missionaries like yourself are the TRUE culprits and practitioners of Revisionism of the historical facts. Don't point blame at western scholarship like u thoughtlessly do.

                          Hiding behind claims that the koran & sunnah are not sources or authorities of historical facts are only lame, stupid and cowardly excuses made by u and dawagandists. And this clearly subverts the korans own credibility big time!

                          And THAT'S WHY many reputable scholars don't care for the propaganda claims, man-made polemics and revised interpolations of the koran, plain and simple.

                          Justice..ur faith in an islamic justice system will only result in the degeneration of society and nations as we know it. For 1400 years this koranic system has abysmally FAILED TO CREATE just, prosperous and blessed societies or nations. Just ask yrself, WHY are muslims from the 3rd & 4th worlds, backward and degenerate, from the middle east, north Africa and the muslim world are rushing to the west to escape all kinds of hardships, persecutions and discrimination there?

                          If the islamic system and sharia are blessings from "god", WHY don't they, and we today, see it in so many islamic countries? WHY are muslims all running away from islamic states for the "greener pastures" of the so-called "kafir" western Nations, whom islam & the koran vilified and insults as "unclean infidels"!?

                          Why don't these muslim refugees stay back in the blessings of the islamic states where they originate from?!?

                          Because there is NO REAL Justice that serves humanity in all these muslim states, truth be told. That's why the muslims are all running to the west by the Millions. That is the REAL truth.

                          1400 years of suffering and injustice from islam is bad enough. It proves the bankruptcy, tyranny, terrorism and falsehood of islam. And this is nicely summarized here by a native Arab whose original homeland is in the middle east and knows the islamic system intimately -

                          https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o0m9nEafBE4



















                          Originally posted by siam View Post
                          Bible----I do not particularly care if the Bible is preserved or not...that is a matter that concerns Christians (and/or Jews). If there is wisdom in the Bible, I will be happy to concede it is from God and embrace it....and I would do the same if this wisdom came from the Tao te Ching, the Sutras, the Gita, the Greeks, Persians or Egyptians. Knowledge/Wisdom is from (One) God and it does not matter what "label" it falls under.

                          Quran---Having read the Quran many times,...I am certain that the Quranic wisdom is suitable for my lifestyle and understandable for my intellect. I am fully satisfied with the Quran and have no doubts.

                          Hadith---It is best to have a scholar deal with ahadiths as this is a field that takes years of study. They are an important heritage of Islam but at the same time, they are easier to manipulate and abuse. When it comes to grading the truth value between hadith and Quran...I would go with the Quran. The Quran is a direct communication from God to me personally...and to every individual reader.

                          Abraham/sacrifice---(Jewish) Bible (genesis 1-19) says...
                          "An angel of God called to Abraham a second time out of heaven and said, “By Myself have I sworn, says God, because you have done this thing and not withheld from Me your son, your only son, that I will bless you without fail, and without fail multiply your descendants as the stars in heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore, and your seed shall inherit the gate of its enemies. And all the nations of the earth shall bless themselves through your seed, as a consequence of your having hearkened to My voice.”
                          https://www.sefaria.org/Genesis.22.1...ng=bi&aliyot=0

                          The consequence of passing the test was that the descendants of Abraham would multiply become a blessings for all the nations of the earth.....

                          The Quran explains it in these verses...a)Surah 37 100-111, b)Surah 2 122-129, c)Surah 22 verse 36, 37
                          a) Abraham has a dream...he discusses this dream with his son. The son advices him to follow the dream and they both agree to do so. The son prostrates for the sacrifice when God stops him saying the dream has been fulfilled.
                          b) After this test, the Kaaba is built by Abraham and his son as a place of sanctuary and prayer. (Abraham prays to God)
                          c) This explains the principle that animals are to be ritually slaughtered for food because it is not the blood or flesh that reaches God but the intentions of the heart.

                          There are interesting aspects that are different in the Quran---1) there is no mention of a ram 2) the son makes his own choice. The test is for both father and son. 3) The building of the Kaaba links Muslims/Islam with Prophet Abraham.
                          The use of animals for food is a privileged given by God and humans need to be grateful to God. 4) God sees our hearts. intentions are important--not just actions.
                          another interesting point is that from the Quranic perspective---"ritual sacrifice" began with Abel and Cain with the resulting fight between brothers leading to bloodshed. It is at this point that God decreed the "law" and disputes were to be settled by law/justice and not bloodshed.

                          If the concept of "Justice" is one that can adjudicate disputes in order to promote peace and discourage bloodshed---or one that advocates the homicide/suicide of an innocent instead of the sinner/criminal...then I will most certainly pick the Quranic concept of Justice!!!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            The crucifixion and death of Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago are not at all meaningless. It is such only to deniers of history and the original words and authentic, verifiable words of Jesus Christ Himself in the best and earliest records and documentation. Only the koran, islam and muslims who take their blind cues from it's twisted revisionism and hypocritical, after-the-facts misrepresentation, facetiously hide behind the polemical claims and conjecture ("divine revelation") to spread their baseless deceptions.

                            Christians believe in the death and crucifixion of Jesus Christ NOT because of the reasons you assert. Or the theological speculations you claim.

                            Rather, the reality and historical fact of JesusÂ’ death 2,000 years ago is based upon what Jesus Himself DECLARED about what he will undergo and personally experience at the hands of religious leaders and foreigners in HIS TIME and witnessed by His followers themselves, recorded in the 3 Synoptic Gospels, whose documentary validity are verified by credentialed historians and reputable Biblical scholars.

                            These Synoptic records, are existentially earlier to the Koran by over 600 years, as do all the orthodox Christian creeds bear witness to this fact of ChristÂ’s words about His death by His enemies from the first till the fifth centuries.

                            Additionally, when Peter the leading apostle and follower of Jesus, tried to reject this idea of Jesus dying at the hands of His enemies, and tried to PREVENT Jesus from being taken to his death, guess what? Jesus called him “Satan”..! For trying to prevent the will of God from taking place.

                            Matthew 16:21-23:-

                            21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he MUST BE KILLEDand on the third day be raised to life.

                            22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”

                            23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

                            Mark 8:31-33:-

                            31 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again.
                            32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.
                            33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

                            Luke 18:31-33:-

                            31 Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled.
                            32 He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him;
                            33 they will flog him AND KILL HIM.
                            On the third day he will rise again.”

                            Muslims and the koran are just like Peter, a follower of Jesus – who tried to stop Jesus from being taken and going to His allegedly “unfair and despicable” death (according to the koran and muslims). And, just like Peter, Jesus Christ sternly rebukes both Muslims, Islam and the Koran as “SATAN”! For trying to deny His death and crucifixion, over 2,000 years ago.

                            23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

                            Because clearly, Jesus ChristÂ’s dying and resurrection 2,000 years ago was essential to Jesus ChristÂ’s mission and GodÂ’s plan and will for the salvation and well-being of humanity in JesusÂ’ own words.

                            When the koran and islam revise the mission of Christ to deny His death at the hands of His enemies, 2000 years ago, making ridiculous claims that Jesus’ mission was to ‘declare and prophesy the coming of Muhammad’ after Jesus’ coming (QS61/6 etc), they practice the worst kind of revisionism and commit unjustifiable violence against the Scriptures possible, and are to be unapologetically exposed as frauds.









                            Originally posted by siam View Post
                            It was interesting to read the Christian interpretation of this story in light of Jesus (pbuh) sacrifice. In Islam, there is no concept of orginal sin/sacrifice etc. Therefore, as a Muslim, I did not see any connection between this story and that of Prophet Jesus (pbuh)....however, if I were to connect the 2 Prophets, this is how I might interpret it...

                            relationship between God and humans---In the Quran, Abraham (pbuh) discusses with his son who then consents to the plan. This shows an adult relationship in which, both father and son, are responsible for their decisions and exercise their free-will. This is generally the expectation in the Quran with regards to humanity...the message (God's will) is there for all to read, discuss and understand---so, take it or leave it. The choice is there for all humanity to exercise.

                            God's power---In the Quranic story, God stops an act of criminality from being committed by his Prophet. If I were to interpret the Quranic verse regarding the crucifixion....I could interpret that God would have stopped a criminal act to happen to his Prophet if he had so wished. When the Quran says the Jews did not kill Prophet Jesus---it is declaring that Prophet Jesus was a true Prophet of God---because Deuteronomy advises Jews to kill false Prophets....and if they were successful, it would mean that they/Jews can claim he was indeed a false Prophet.....
                            https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/18-20.htm

                            Reciprocity---This is an important theme in the Quran. A relationship is built on at least some degree of reciprocity. In this story, the test was not just on Prophet Abraham and his son, by God...but one might say...God was also tested by Prophet Abraham. Would God allow injustice---the murder of an innocent---or stop it? In this story---God passes the test, an injustice is stopped.

                            Faith---but what if it had not?....what would happen to the faith of the readers of the Quran if, in this story, an injustice had been allowed to occur?. Would we still believe in a God that allows suffering? This is a question that the Quran also asks of its readers elsewhere. It is easy to have faith when the going is good...and easier to abandon it when the going gets tough...are we among those who remain patient and steadfast when times are tough?......we must choose who we are of our own free-will.

                            What of you?...would you still believe in God even if Jesus' crucifixion had no meaning?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                              The crucifixion and death of Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago are not at all meaningless. It is such only to deniers of history and the original words and authentic, verifiable words of Jesus Christ Himself in the best and earliest records and documentation. Only the koran, islam and muslims who take their blind cues from it's twisted revisionism and hypocritical, after-the-facts misrepresentation, facetiously hide behind the polemical claims and conjecture ("divine revelation") to spread their baseless deceptions.

                              Christians believe in the death and crucifixion of Jesus Christ NOT because of the reasons you assert. Or the theological speculations you claim.

                              Rather, the reality and historical fact of JesusÂ’ death 2,000 years ago is based upon what Jesus Himself DECLARED about what he will undergo and personally experience at the hands of religious leaders and foreigners in HIS TIME and witnessed by His followers themselves, recorded in the 3 Synoptic Gospels, whose documentary validity are verified by credentialed historians and reputable Biblical scholars.


                              ....
                              Faith in God---my question was---what is your bottom line for your faith in One God? is it conditional on some concepts such as the meaning of crucifixion or would it remain even without?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Faith - IT does NOT occur in a vacuum, perhaps your muslim faith does.

                                Christian faith for example, is in response to a primary trait in the character of God - called LOVE. And that Loving character expresses itself that elicits a response to Him. And God has expressed the pinnacle of His love to us in ways that we can begin to understand and grasp, and this is accounted for in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

                                Christians have faith in a real, living God Who acts.

                                Our faith is in response to the one, true God showing and giving to us His favour. Our Faith is the personal and deliberate response to the acts of God, Who first loved us, unconditionally and prophetically.

                                The pinnacle of God’s love is declared in Romans 5:8 (which muslims like you prejudicially and mindlessly regard with disdain):

                                “But GOD shows His love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

                                I have already proven from the earliest Synoptic Gospel records, from Matthew, Mark and Luke (which all pre-date your koran) how Jesus Christ Himself prophesied His death, which subsequently took place over 2,000 years ago outside Jerusalem, and this perfectly was fulfilled then, coming to pass because Christ’s death, and resurrection, were totally in line and accordance with God’s plan for the Son of Man.

                                “The Son of Man (Jesus) did not come to be serve, but to serve and to sacrifice (give) His life as a RANSOM (Redemption) for many people”
                                Matthew 20:28

                                Our faith is not what we work for, to attain and to earn the favour of God/Allah like the muslims do. Christians were already shown, been given and are the recipients of God’s divine and unconditional love, this is called GRACE. Something not found in the Koran.

                                1 John 4:18,19 – “There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. Fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

                                We love, BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVE US.”

                                This kind of love is not at all twisted or perverse, like you insultingly insinuate in your previous post.

                                That is why Jesus Christ’s words declared in John 3:16-18 are the favorite Scriptures of Christians that we memorize and steadfastly share with unbelievers like yourself.

                                “For GOD So loved the world, that He GAVE His one and ONLY Son, that whosoever believes in Him (this Son of God), should not perish but have everlasting life.

                                For GOD did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be SAVED through him.

                                Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, But whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has NOT believed in the name of the only Son of God.”







                                Originally posted by siam View Post
                                Faith in God---my question was---what is your bottom line for your faith in One God? is it conditional on some concepts such as the meaning of crucifixion or would it remain even without?

                                Comment

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