The Necromancer (The Hobbit)

[headheart]

Sauron.jpg

'Sauron was become now a sorcerer of dreadful power, master of shadows and of phantoms, foul in wisdom, cruel in strength, misshaping what he touched, twisting what he ruled, lord of werewolves; his dominion was torment.'
—J.R.R. Tolkien ( J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The Silmarillion, "Quenta Silmarillion: Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin" )

I watched "The Hobbit" last night, having last taken that journey some years ago; courtesy of the local library in my old hometown, and a vinyl copy of the book. Actually, I do have the actual book, right next to bed, and have been planning to read it. Well, after watching the movie last night, I think I'm definitely going to give it a go.



I was disappointed that so much of the original text was missing, but was totally enchanted by the song of the Dwarves, just prior to Gandalf and them leaving undecided Frodo behind. It was a great movie, and if you haven't seen it yet, I highly suggest you do.

There were so many great moments, it's hard to choose one, but I especially enjoyed the interaction between Gandalf, Saruman and Galadriel at Rivendale. (watch it)

So, who was the Necromancer?

[Cerebrum123]

I'm pretty sure it's Sauron.

[headheart]

Mr Baggins began as a comic tale among conventional and inconsistent Grimm's fairy-tale dwarves, and got drawn into the edge of it – so that even Sauron the terrible peeped over the edge.
—J.R.R. Tolkien

Sauron the Abhorred.jpg

Morgoth

The Valar

The Ainur

"But Rúmil said: 'Ilúvatar was the first beginning, and beyond that no wisdom of the Valar or of Eldar or of Men can go.' 'Who was Ilúvatar?' asked Eriol. 'Was he of the Gods?' 'Nay,' said Rúmil, 'that he was not, for he made them. Ilúvatar is the Lord for Always who dwells beyond the world; who made it and is not of it nor in it, but loves it.' "
― The Book of Lost Tales Part One, "The Music of the Ainur"

Who was the true hero of the Lord of the Rings?

[Darth Executor]

What does Wicca have to do with this?

[headheart]

What does Wicca have to do with this?

Probably nothing, but there are certainly witches in these tales by J.R.R. Tolkien. Would it bother you if there were, in fact, such witches who wielded deadly powers, powers equal to that of the Necromancer, Sauron?

Now back to the question, who was the true hero of Lord of the Rings?

e.j.s

[Manwë Súlimo]

Bill the pony

[headheart]

Bill the pony

Sam:
Samwise Gamgee, later known as Samwise Gardner[1] and commonly as Sam, is a fictional character in J. R. R. Tolkien's legendarium. Samwise is one of the chief characters in Tolkien's novel The Lord of the Rings, in which he fills an archetypical role as the sidekick of the primary protagonist, Frodo Baggins.

Frodo:
Frodo Baggins is a fictional character in J. R. R. Tolkien's legendarium. He serves as the primary protagonist of The Lord of the Rings. Frodo is a hobbit of the Shire who inherits Sauron's Ring from Bilbo Baggins and undertakes the quest to destroy it in the fires of Mount Doom. He is also mentioned in Tolkien's posthumously published works, The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales.

Gollum:
'.... Sam cursed Gollum after his death, but Frodo urged his friend to forgive him, as without him the quest would have failed and the war would have been lost. Tolkien later wrote that it was direct intervention by Eru, Middle-earth's version of God, that led to Gollum's "accident"

Lord of the Rings- Frodo, Sam and Golum

Kinda reminds me of the book of Job. Regardless, we shall hobbit along in spite of the missed opportunity of discussing Gollum's role in dealing with Sauron.

Galadriel tells Gandalf what.png

What was it that Galadriel said to Gandalph?

[Brandalf85]

The Lord of the Rings was Sauron, for sure. You can google The Necromancer and find it was one of his names. He was building up his strength in Mirkwood (in the books anyway) under the guise of the Necromancer so no one would know it was him. However, they finally decided to deal with him and he fled to Mordor where he revealed himself to be Sauron.

[Rushing Jaws]

Definitely Sauron - see the Tale of Years, for the years 1000-2951 of the Third Age.

[Rushing Jaws]

Probably nothing, but there are certainly witches in these tales by J.R.R. Tolkien. Would it bother you if there were, in fact, such witches who wielded deadly powers, powers equal to that of the Necromancer, Sauron?

Now back to the question, who was the true hero of Lord of the Rings?

e.j.s

## I think the honours are divided. ISTM that Tolkien intended that no one person should be "the hero" - that several can be so described. I don't the question can be answered if one leaves out the Silmarillion, because the present (the time of the War of the Ring) can't be seen in focus if we ignore the past from which Middle Earth in the present, and those in it, come. That said, I think the following (in alphabetical order) would qualify:

• Aragorn
  Frodo
  Gandalf

- for different reasons. Several others have notably heroic moments, without being central characters - such as Faramir, Galadriel, Gollum, and Sam. Even if the Quest had failed, or been perverted, Galadriel's refusal of the Ring - her CM of A, ISTM - would still be a CM of A. After all, Isildur's exploit in Numenor, in which he recovers a fruit of Nimloth the White Tree, at great risk to himself ("he came near to death" as a result) is still a CM of A, despite his later decision to take the Ring as weregild for his father and brother. The later weakness or failure, does not (AFAICS) cancel out the earlier heroism.

STM that Elrond shows very great heroism. He loses his parents, his brother, his wife, his daughter, and both his sons. Admittedly he can look forward to being re-united with his wife (& possibly his mother), but only after a long time; he is bereft of the others. He pays a very high price, both for the ending of the Oath of Feanor, & for the destruction of the Ring. He is heroic in endurance & patience - a less visible kind of heroism than (say) Frodo's, but no less real.

I think Aragorn is overlooked, very unjustly. ISTM that there is a good case for him to have gone to the Undying Lands. He could have been given a scene showing him being a Ring-bearer, like Isildur; but, unlike him, giving it back to Frodo. Such a scene could have been what led Boromir into temptation.

For A. to go the UL would be thematically appropriate, as the King from Over the Water (of whom Aragorn is an example) often returns from his country to the realm of the inaccessible from which he has come. Scyld Scefing in Beowulf is an excellent example of this motif. Within the tale, it would be dramatically appropriate for Aragorn to go to the UL - that is what Ar-Pharazon blasphemously attempted to do, destroying Numenor in the process. Aragorn would be receiving this as a gift of the Valar (& ultimately, of Eru Iluvatar); he would most definitely not be seeking to wrest everlasting life from the Valar; he would be undoing the sin of the Numenorean kings who "murmured against the Ban [of the Valar]", and started the events that led to Ar-Pharazon's "impious Armada", for he would be receiving as a Divine gift the life they wanted to take to themselves in their discontent & pride. If this had been given to him, such a gift would have shown that Sauron's attempts to use the pride of Ar-Pharazon to destroy Numenor had - in the long run - been thwarted.

"Fading", in the Elves, & the loss of "vitality" - for lack of a better word - & "fullness of being" in Morgoth & Sauron, has a counterpart in the dwindling vitality & life-span of the Numenorean Kings: they tried to obtain more life than was allotted them, and so lost even what they had been given: with Aragorn, a stay comes in this process, and a renewal: but not the full return of all the gifts the Numenoreans received when that kingdom was founded; Middle Earth remains a land marked by the Shadow.

Perhaps, if Aragorn had not died, the Gift of Men would still have had the value it did for Ar-Pharazon & the Exiles: it would have remained something to fear and shun, just as Morgoth had made it for the first Men. By accepting it freely, as a Gift, Aragorn deprives it of its sting: his acceptance of it, and his deliberate refusal to rebel against, are (ISTM) his final acts of heroism. He shows how men should die - this is a lesson for Arwen, & (it seems safe to say) for his son & successor Eldarion. Aragorn lived 210 years, and reigned 120 - his ancestor Elros (Elrond's twin brother), first King of Numenor, lived 500 years, and ruled the Numenoreans 410 years. This is significant, because Aragorn could - had he been so minded - have complained that his life & reign were so much shorter: that is what some of the Numenorean kings did. Aragorn "shows his quality" by having a far better attitude. That is another facet of his heroism.

This is probably a serious mistake, but IMO there is a heap of good reasons for thinking of Aragorn as "the hero" - sort of, anyway. As for Gandalf - obviously there is a case. The book is full of heroism, of many kinds - as is the history of that world. There is also the (fraudulent) heroism of Sauron - he is "only" a Maia, like Gandalf & Melian, but despite enormous obstacles he gets a lot done. The reader doesn't even have the luxury of thinking of him as wholly evil, because Gandalf explicitly says Sauron was not. Aragorn cannot be seen properly if one looks only at TLOTR - his background & genealogy are extremely important means to understanding him. The genealogies are not mere "filling", any more than they are in the Bible: this is why his descent from Luthien, & Elros, & Elendil & Isildur is so important: the last two are particularly important. BTW, the PJ films distort the facts about Isildur, quite unforgivably; this is a major flaw IMO. (Quite apart from the "Arwen-isation" of TLOTR - though, contrary to myth, there are a lot of female characters in the books, most of them significant; that there are few in the period covered by TLOTR is also very likely to be significant, as a reflection of the culture of the time. That is not Tolkien's fault.)

[Leonhard]

...CM of A...ISTM...AFAICS...STM...

PETA*


























*Please Explain The Acronyms

[Raphael]

PETA*






*Please Explain The Acronyms

CM of A - Crowning Moment of Awesome http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...omentOfAwesome
ISTM - It Seems To Me
AFAICS - As Far As I Can See
STM - I think he left out the I for that one.

[Rushing Jaws]

CM of A - Crowning Moment of Awesome http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...omentOfAwesome
ISTM - It Seems To Me
AFAICS - As Far As I Can See
STM - I think he left out the I for that one.

## Seems To Me :) TY for explaining, and sorry for any confusion.

TV Tropes has some very good pages on the Sil & TLOTR. Sil = Silmarillion. Quenta Silmarillion, to give the Sil itself its proper, Quenya, title.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...heSilmarillion

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...LordOfTheRings

There are many CMs of A in both.

[RBerman]

A thousand-page work in six volumes often doesn't have a simple protagonist in the way that a shorter book does. The way books 3-6 alternate between Frodo's journey and Aragorn's adventure points to that further. Each of the hobbits goes on a Hero's Journey from adolescence to adulthood, each with his own moment of solo heroism before coming back together for the Scouring of the Shire. Frodo and Sam get more elaboration than Pippin and Merry. It seems best to understand the four of them as different facets on a single gemstone, "The Hobbit," who is the protagonist. No matter where the story goes, one of them is always there.

In Tolkien's vision, Aragorn is already fully formed when we first meet him, a man with a mission, and he spends his time executing that mission in a kingly manner. The movie wanted to give him an emotional arc instead, so he starts out uncertain and then gradually gains confidence. Ditto Faramir, who in the book is so self-possessed that he's not even slightly tempted by the Ring, and never seriously entertains the thought of interfering in Frodo's quest.

In both the book and the movie, Gandalf simply is. As Tolkien's version of an angel, he has no emotional arc. He serves the Secret Fire, and that is that. Gollum too is essentially unchanged by the journey. Gimli and Legolas change a little, gaining appreciation for each other's societies, and Legolas gets the sea-call for the Undying Lands, but basically this is just another military campaign for them, albeit an especially momentous one.

[Manwë Súlimo]

I would argue that Gollum went through a change, almost to the point of repentance, until Sam's tragic misunderstanding on the mountains of Mordor made it all for naught:

And so Gollum found them hours later, when he returned, crawling and creeping down the path out of the gloom ahead. Sam sat propped against the stone, his head dropping sideways and his breathing heavy. In his lap lay Frodo’s head, drowned deep in sleep; upon his white forehead lay one of Sam’s brown hands, and the other lay softly upon his master’s breast. Peace was in both their faces.

Gollum looked at them. A strange expression passed over his lean hungry face. The gleam faded from his eyes, and they went dim and grey, old and tired. A spasm of pain seemed to twist him, and he turned away, peering back up towards the pass, shaking his head, as if engaged in some interior debate. Then he came back, and slowly putting out a trembling hand, very cautiously he touched Frodo’s knee – but almost the touch was a caress. For a fleeting moment, could one of the sleepers have seen him, they would have thought that they beheld an old weary hobbit, shrunken by the years that had carried him far beyond his time, beyond friends and kin, and the fields and streams of youth, an old starved pitiable thing.

But at that touch Frodo stirred and cried out softly in his sleep, and immediately Sam was wide awake. The first thing he saw was Gollum – ‘pawing at master,’ as he thought.

‘Hey you!’ he said roughly. ‘What are you up to?’ ‘Nothing, nothing,’ said Gollum softly. ‘Nice Master!’ ‘I daresay,’ said Sam. ‘But where have you been to – sneaking off and sneaking back, you old villain?’

Gollum withdrew himself, and a green glint flickered under his heavy lids. Almost spider-like he looked now, crouched back on his bent limbs, with his protruding eyes. The fleeting moment had passed, beyond recall. ‘Sneaking, sneaking!’ he hissed. ‘Hobbits always so polite, yes. O nice hobbits! Sméagol brings them up secret ways that nobody else could find. Tired he is, thirsty he is, yes thirsty; and he guides them and he searches for paths, and they say sneak, sneak. Very nice friends, O yes my precious, very nice.’

Emphasis on "beyond recall"