Abrams calls for removal of Confederate faces off Stone Mountain

[Jedidiah]

Oh really. Who are these "violent anti-Americans" interested in ethnic cleansing?

https://youtu.be/54MetzvFJHE

[Terraceth]

LOL. You don't get to tell me what I can and can't do.

Okay then. You shouldn't throw a claim like that out without backing it up.

As it happens I wish to keep my personal details private. Revealing a particular book I'd authored would run rather contrary to that. And I have zero interest in trying to market the book to the small and antagonistic audience on this site.

I can understand a desire to keep personal details private. However, mentioning you wrote a book as if trying to demonstrate your knowledge in the matter means absolutely nothing if you do not identify that book so it can be examined.

As it happens I rarely discuss theology/biblical interpretation/christian history etc on this site these days (I once did under a different username years ago, and no I'm not telling you what it was), in part because this particular forum restricts the theological sub-forums to Christians-only, in part because there's only about 2 posters here who I judge have sufficient expertise to be worth my time talking to so different forums are a better choice, and in part because the reason I'm here is because I'm fascinated by how insane conservative US politics is compared to the rest of the Western world and this forum has a high concentration of conservative US posters.

AS stated above, I can understand a desire to keep personal details private by not sharing information on your book (even though I believe it is silly to make such a claim without backing it up). However, I do not see what personal details are at stake with the identity of a previous account.

[Mountain Man]

I wonder who the publisher was? There are a number of vanity publishers out there that will happily publish anything provided the sucker author pays for it upfront.

[Jedidiah]

. . . (I wrote a book on it) . . .

I don't believe it.

[psstein]

I wonder who the publisher was? There are a number of vanity publishers out there that will happily publish anything provided the sucker author pays for it upfront.

There are a ton of "print on demand" places too. Frankly, unless it went through peer-review or is published by a reputable publisher, I'll pass.

[psstein]

You morons keep repeating that false claim, without ever being able to supply a single example. It doesn't become true just by repetition.

If I recall correctly, the only time you and I have had a serious disagreement here on history / biblical interpretation was when I floated a hypothetical that the precursors of gnosticism might have been more present in NT Christianity than is generally accepted. You threw a childish tantrum, started insulting me, and couldn't seem to mentally cope with the hypothetical. Apart from that I often find myself agreeing with or amening things you write on biblical topics in the Apologetics forum, though your posts in the Civics forum seem to be consistently absurd.

Yes, I totally threw a tantrum by telling you that your idea that Christianity was influenced by hallucinatory experiences is an idea that would be laughed off the stage at any conference. When John Allegro came out with his idea in the 1970s, he was subject to a huge amount of scholarly opposition, with Geoffrey Driver, his PhD supervisor, more or less calling him a crank. If you do professional history for any length of time, you run into a lot of cranks/lunatics thinking that they have some sort of special insight into something that nobody else has managed to figure out yet. So, I end up responding pretty strongly to things that are either blatantly wrong or completely discredited.

I know of scholars (the more well-known you are, the worse it gets) who get dozens of emails a week propounding lunatic ideas.

As for my political views, I have a similar view of your beliefs, but I don't try to pretend as though I'm an expert on New Zealand politics or that I somehow am morally better than those who disagree with me.

[Tassman]

He can't cuz he isn't even an American. He lives down in Australia which they stole from black people.

None of the Christian colonialists have a good record in treating the indigenous they conquered, Australia included. Although Australia never had slavery, and the prime minister has at least officially apologised in parliament on behalf of the Australian people for its mistreatment of the original inhabitants.

[tabibito]

Well - Australia never had officially sanctioned slavery, anyway. Tacit-approval/failure-to-act-against it now ... and vilification (by government officials, church, and press) of people - but they were only Christians anyway - who did voice disapproval.

[Tassman]

Nobody, especially Trump is against people protesting White supremacists. They are against using violence against white supremacists, or anyone else.

You can disagree with someone but that doesn't give you the right to beat them up. That is battery. It is illegal. Peaceful protest is fine and welcomed.

Just face the fact that Trump virtually isolated himself re his stance on the White Supremacists. Most people from House Speaker Ryan down, have been uncompromising in their condemnation of Trump. Just this morning, during his Town Hall, Ryan, said that Trump "messed up" in his handling of the issue and gave the impression of ambiguity and moral equivalence by equating activists protesting racism with the neo-Nazis and white supremacists who rampaged in Charlottesville.

[Starlight]

Although Australia never had slavery

My understanding is that from 1860-1900 there was effectively slavery on the sugar plantations in Queensland. I was surprised to learn on a holiday in Vanuatu that historically the islanders there were kidnapped and used as slaves on those sugar plantations.

None of the Christian colonialists have a good record in treating the indigenous they conquered

NZ and Canada (I'm relatively ignorant of Canadian history though) had relatively good records overall I think. While the US and Australia were pretty terrible in their treatment of natives. Obviously native populations in South America were utterly devastated by aggressive European conquest and colonization. Africa was a mixed bag, with the existing African kingdoms and rulers being utterly destroyed by European attack, but in some instances the conquerors actually did a lot to care for the people in their conquered territory. But yeah, overall, it seems like it was a bad thing to have your people conquered by Christians.

[tabibito]

Just face the fact that Trump virtually isolated himself re his stance on the White Supremacists. Most people from House Speaker Ryan down, have been uncompromising in their condemnation of Trump. Just this morning, during his Town Hall, Ryan, said that Trump "messed up" in his handling of the issue and gave the impression of ambiguity and moral equivalence by equating activists protesting racism with the neo-Nazis and white supremacists who rampaged in Charlottesville.

Trump failed to give one set of combatants (engaged in an illegal street brawl) a free pass while declaring their opponents to be reprehensible.
He expressed disgust with both: that is a long way from moral ambivalence.

In my view: kudos to Trump.

[Adrift]

None of the Christian colonialists have a good record in treating the indigenous they conquered, Australia included. Although Australia never had slavery, and the prime minister has at least officially apologised in parliament on behalf of the Australian people for its mistreatment of the original inhabitants.

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-10-...-sea-islanders

Source: Australia Comes to Grips With Slave History : Discrimination: Novelist's book recalls the traders who plundered South Pacific islands.
October 13, 1991|MICHAEL PERRY | REUTERS

SYDNEY, Australia — Shackled, flogged with kangaroo hide whips and raped at will, Australia's slaves died by the thousands. Between 1842 and 1904 more than 60,000 men and boys from the South Pacific islands, and an unknown number of women and girls, were kidnaped and brought to Australia to work as slaves on the sugar plantations that still dot the country's northeast coast. But their screams were ignored by the country's white historians, and 150 years later few Australians are aware of this brutal period of their history.

© Copyright Original Source

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Australia

Slavery in Australia mainly occurred on sugar plantations in the northern areas of the country. Along with many Indigenous Australians, many people from the islands surrounding Australia were kidnapped and forced to work. Some academics dispute the term "slavery" due to the payment for labour occurring despite many not receiving wages. This practice of unpaid work and separation from family continued until 1970. State governments have denied fair restitution for these acts, even in the modern era having taken very little responsibility to date, despite government involvement (often including the police services).

http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/lin...ht_a_22114200/

Source: Modern Slavery In Australia Is Hiding In Plain Sight Just no longer in physical chains, but psychological ones. 29/05/2017 2:27 PM AEST | Updated 29/05/2017 2:27 PM AEST

When most Australians think of slavery they envision William Wilberforce and people being shipped to the Americas in chains. Like me, they would be shocked to discover that this inhumane practice continues today, even in Australia -- just no longer in physical chains, but psychological ones. . . . After becoming aware of the existence of modern slavery, I realised child orphanages are an, as yet, internationally unrecognised form of modern slavery. The most common form is bonded labour -- when a person is forced to work off a debt that may take years or even a lifetime to pay off.

This form of slavery also happens in Australia, along with sexual trafficking, child labour, forced labour, forced marriage and domestic servitude. Walk Free estimate that there are at least 4,300 slaves in Australia, when we start looking we are likely to find many more, as they have in the UK.

Australians also unwittingly play a role in slavery overseas. Many major Australian companies will have slavery in their supply chains. This was highlighted after several large Australian fashion brands were discovered using factories employing exploitative work practices following the Rana Plaza collapse, which killed more than 1,000 workers in Bangladesh in 2013.

© Copyright Original Source

[tabibito]

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-10-...-sea-islanders

Source: Australia Comes to Grips With Slave History : Discrimination: Novelist's book recalls the traders who plundered South Pacific islands.
October 13, 1991|MICHAEL PERRY | REUTERS

SYDNEY, Australia — Shackled, flogged with kangaroo hide whips and raped at will, Australia's slaves died by the thousands. Between 1842 and 1904 more than 60,000 men and boys from the South Pacific islands, and an unknown number of women and girls, were kidnaped and brought to Australia to work as slaves on the sugar plantations that still dot the country's northeast coast. But their screams were ignored by the country's white historians, and 150 years later few Australians are aware of this brutal period of their history.

© Copyright Original Source

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Australia

Yup - just another example of the victors writing their version of history.

Slavery in Australia mainly occurred on sugar plantations in the northern areas of the country. Along with many Indigenous Australians, many people from the islands surrounding Australia were kidnapped and forced to work. Some academics dispute the term "slavery" due to the payment for labour occurring despite many not receiving wages. This practice of unpaid work and separation from family continued until 1970. State governments have denied fair restitution for these acts, even in the modern era having taken very little responsibility to date, despite government involvement (often including the police services).

http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/lin...ht_a_22114200/

Source: Modern Slavery In Australia Is Hiding In Plain Sight Just no longer in physical chains, but psychological ones. 29/05/2017 2:27 PM AEST | Updated 29/05/2017 2:27 PM AEST

When most Australians think of slavery they envision William Wilberforce and people being shipped to the Americas in chains. Like me, they would be shocked to discover that this inhumane practice continues today, even in Australia -- just no longer in physical chains, but psychological ones. . . . After becoming aware of the existence of modern slavery, I realised child orphanages are an, as yet, internationally unrecognised form of modern slavery. The most common form is bonded labour -- when a person is forced to work off a debt that may take years or even a lifetime to pay off.

This form of slavery also happens in Australia, along with sexual trafficking, child labour, forced labour, forced marriage and domestic servitude. Walk Free estimate that there are at least 4,300 slaves in Australia, when we start looking we are likely to find many more, as they have in the UK.

Australians also unwittingly play a role in slavery overseas. Many major Australian companies will have slavery in their supply chains. This was highlighted after several large Australian fashion brands were discovered using factories employing exploitative work practices following the Rana Plaza collapse, which killed more than 1,000 workers in Bangladesh in 2013.

© Copyright Original Source

Many people fail to see that under-paying for work is inappropriate. Australians tend to take a dim view of the practice when they become aware that it is happening.

But - "child orphanages are a ... form of modern slavery" ... not if they're run in accordance with their charters.

Slavery never has been, and indentured labour no longer is, legal in Australia. People in Australia who engage in such practices are deemed to be criminals.

[Adrift]

relatively[/i] good records overall I think. While the US and Australia were pretty terrible in their treatment of natives.

Source: New Zealand and the Pacific slave trade, From Sunday Morning, 11:06 am on 27 November 2016

New Zealand’s role in the Pacific slave trade is "a dark piece of our history" that is often overlooked, Pacific researcher Scott Hamilton says.

Dr Hamilton says the idea that New Zealand was involved in the slave trade conflicts with our image of ourselves. He told Sunday Morning that in the 1870s, Pacific Island slaves worked in New Zealand flax mills and on the estates of some our wealthiest citizens. “We think of ourselves as the good guys and it’s the Australians and the Americans that had slavery, ‘we didn’t do any of that’. “But as I’ve discovered, we did. And it’s a dark piece of our history but I think it is worth remembering.”

In his book The Stolen Island: Searching for ‘Ata, he tells the story of a slave raid by New Zealand and Tasmanian sailors on the isolated Tongan island of 'Ata in 1863 where nearly 150 people were stolen for sale in the slave market in Peru.

‘Ata is a tiny island – roughly 1.5 square kilometres - about 150km south of Tongatapu, the main island of Tonga, he says. Settled by Tongans in the 1600s, it is surrounded by high cliffs, battered by wild seas and has almost no reef. “And despite all of [those] odds in this incredible tough environment they created a thriving society, Dr Hamilton says. “[But] this was all destroyed in the first week of June 1863 when a man named Thomas McGrath brought a ship up from New Zealand with a mixed Tasmanian/New Zealand crew.”

McGrath had had some previous successes as a whaler, although he had wrecked several boats, and had decided that taking slaves would be more profitable than whaling – which was in decline because of over-exploitation. About 150 ‘Atan men, women and children had swum out to greet the ship, and they had been invited below deck to either view merchandise for trading, or to share a meal – the accounts vary.

“And they don’t get back on the deck. He battens down the hatches and the ship sails away,” Dr Hamilton says. “He [then] sailed to the north of Tonga to the island of Niuafo’ou where he took 30 men, and then he sold the lot of them to a slaver who took them to Peru.

Peru was the notorious centre of the Pacific slave trade at the time. But just as the ‘Atans arrived, pushback from the clergy, revolts on the islands, and internationally pressure had led to the Peruvian government rescinding the law legalising slavery. Instead of being sold on, the ‘Atans were kept in a dank warehouse at the port with other Islanders awaiting repatriation. Then smallpox arrived, spreading quickly through the warehouse, killing many.

Dr Hamilton says McGrath was never tried for the slave raid, but he did face justice for thwarting customs after he returned to Stuart Island with illicit, undeclared, cargo. During this trial he denied taking part in the slave trade saying he was just ferrying islanders around, which elicited laughter in the court, which did not believe him

‘He never faced justice for what he did really,” Dr Hamilton says.

© Copyright Original Source

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...ry#New_Zealand

New Zealand

Before the arrival of European settlers, each Māori tribe (iwi) considered itself a separate entity equivalent to a nation. In traditional Māori society of Aotearoa, prisoners of war became taurekareka, slaves, unless released, ransomed or eaten.[281] With some exceptions, the child of a slave remained a slave.

As far as it is possible to tell, slavery seems to have increased in the early 19th century with increased numbers of prisoners being taken by Māori military leaders, such as Hongi Hika and Te Rauparaha to satisfy the need for labor in the Musket Wars, to supply whalers and traders with food, flax and timber in return for western goods. The intertribal Musket Wars lasted 1807 to 1843 when large numbers of slaves were captured by northern tribes who had acquired muskets. About 20,000 Maori died in the wars which were concentrated in the North Island. An unknown number of slaves were captured. Northern tribes used slaves (called mokai) to grow large areas of potatoes for trade with visiting ships. Chiefs started an extensive sex trade in the Bay of Islands in the 1830s using mainly slave girls. By 1835 about 70–80 ships per year called into the port. One French captain described the impossibility of getting rid of the girls who swarmed over his ship out numbering his crew of 70 by 3 to 1. All payments to the girls were stolen by the chief.[282] By 1833 Christianity had become established in the north and large numbers of slaves were freed. However two Taranaki tribes, Ngati Tama and Ngati Mutunga, displaced by the wars carried out a carefully planned invasion of the Chatham Islands, 800 km east of Christchurch, in 1835. About 15% of the Polynesian Moriori natives who had migrated to the islands at about 1500 CE were killed, with many women being tortured to death. The remaining population were enslaved for the purpose of growing food, especially potatoes. The Moriori were treated in an inhumane and degrading manner for many years. Their culture was banned and they were forbidden to marry.[283] Slavery was outlawed when the British annexed New Zealand in 1840, immediately prior to the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi, although it did not end completely until government was effectively extended over the whole of the country with the defeat of the Kingi movement in the Wars of the mid-1860s.

Some Maori took Moriori partners. The state of enslavement of Moriori lasted until the 1860s although it had been banned by British law since 1809 and discouraged by CMS missionaries in North New Zealand from the late 1820s. In 1870 Ngati Mutunga, one of the invading tribes, argued before the Native Land Court in New Zealand that their gross mistreatment of the Moriori was standard Maori practice or tikanga.[284]

Source: http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/80431938/Slavery-in-New-Zealand-is-increasing-with-migrants-the-most-exploited

Slavery in New Zealand is increasing with migrants the most exploited

© Copyright Original Source

Source: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/84236855/likely-thousands-of-migrant-slaves-in-new-zealand-expert

Likely 'thousands' of migrant slaves in New Zealand: Expert

© Copyright Original Source

Oh, okay.

[Adrift]

Yup - just another example of the victors writing their version of history.

Many people fail to see that under-paying for work is inappropriate. Australians tend to take a dim view of the practice when they become aware that it is happening.

But - "child orphanages are a ... form of modern slavery" ... not if they're run in accordance with their charters.

Slavery never has been, and indentured labour no longer is, legal in Australia. People in Australia who engage in such practices are deemed to be criminals.

The ludicrous narrative that slavery only existed in the Americas is absolutely ridiculous. Wherever there have been people there has been slavery. We can call it something else today, but that doesn't make it any less than what it is.