Poll on Charlottesville march and support for views

[KingsGambit]

Well I fully support the goal to keep the statue where it is.

The point is that the march was about more than the statue. Both sides had plenty to say/chant that had nothing to do with the statue.

[Starlight]

In this case, it's pretty clear - the pro-statue protestors were there specifically to promote their odious ideology. The stated goal was "unite the right" - under the banner of white nationalism. The counterprotestors were there pretty much to speak up against that and not so much there about their other ideological goals.

But, but, but... seer told me one of the counter-protesters had a communist flag, which can't possibly be them trolling the neo-Nazis who were carrying Nazi flags and must mean the counter-protesters all embrace all aspects of communism and also hate America and everything it stands for.

[seer]

In this case, it's pretty clear - the pro-statue protestors were there specifically to promote their odious ideology. The stated goal was "unite the right" - under the banner of white nationalism. The counterprotestors were there pretty much to speak up against that and not so much there about their other ideological goals.

Oh please, that is why they were carrying Communist flags! The counter protestors had no permit, and were only there to incite - they got what they wished for - violence.

[Raphael]

That's what the neutral option was for.

Though I am more interested in this thread with regard to agreement with the values and ideology that underlie that of the protesters. The poll was poorly phrased in that regard I guess. Generally I am against the very notion of 'counter-protesters' in any circumstances as I think it's generally not a good strategy and inflames a situation.

What I am more interested in hearing about is the level of support from TWebbers towards the general ideas that the protesters were there to support and endorse rather than people's opinions of the specific people who were there protesting or their specific tactics.

For what it's worth, I don't think the statues should be removed. The reasons for the American civil war was more complex than just being about slavery and a number of men on both sides sides committed acts of heroism and a number did the opposite.

It is possible to celebrate their bravery while objecting to their cause.

[seer]

But, but, but... seer told me one of the counter-protesters had a communist flag, which can't possibly be them trolling the neo-Nazis who were carrying Nazi flags and must mean the counter-protesters all embrace all aspects of communism and also hate America and everything it stands for.

I did not say that all the counter protestors were Commies or Antifa or Black Lives...

[One Bad Pig]

For what it's worth, I don't think the statues should be removed. The reasons for the American civil war was more complex than just being about slavery and a number of men on both sides sides committed acts of heroism and a number did the opposite.

It is possible to celebrate their bravery while objecting to their cause.

This.

The "Neutral" option does not express my opinion at all. Both sides are stark raving nutters, and my feelings are not conflicted a whit.

[demi-conservative]

When you look at the rally against the removal of the confederate statue, and see those guys marching with their torches, where do you fall on a spectrum of "Yeah! Those are my people!" through to "OMG, it's the incarnation of evil and is the modern KKK!"?

Neutral, no feelings too !!! Country is tearing itself apart, this sort of thing should be expected!

Only surprising thing is that only one person died (what with so many guns).

[Darth Executor]

But both sides where hoping to push the other to be the one who fired the first shot as it were.

No, you're equivocating out of ignorance. ANTIFA OPENLY ADMIT THEY WILL ASSAULT ANYONE THEY CONSIDER A NAZI (which is just about everyone on the right). They really couldn't care less who starts it, which is why they usually do. They aren't even that selective about who they attack, and I don't mean just ideology. They've even ended up attacking their own guys because they thought they were from the other camp. There are a lot of people on the right who do show up hoping/knowing antifa will attack because they like to brawl but that's not a crime nor is it equivalent to actually starting a fight.

[psstein]

I strongly oppose white nationalism, and I think that the tactics used by both the "antifas" and white nationalists are unacceptable. That being said, I have some reservations about removing Confederate statues on the grounds that they're currently being removed on.

[Roy]

Putting aside the violence, I'm interested in getting a feel for where TWebbers fall on the spectrum of support for the "Unite the Right" rally that took place in Charlottesville recently where the main march was a group of people upset by the removal of the confederate statue, and they identified themselves as patriots, confederates, alt-right, white nationalists, neo-nazis etc.

When you look at the rally against the removal of the confederate statue, and see those guys marching with their torches, where do you fall on a spectrum of "Yeah! Those are my people!" through to "OMG, it's the incarnation of evil and is the modern KKK!"?

I think the poll is too one-dimensional. Where's the option for 'I don't want works of art destroyed, but I loathe the protestors and don't think much of the counter-protestors either'?

[Mountain Man]

I could not vote because I see both of them as strongly anti Americans and racists. I align with neither to any meaningful degree.

I'm sorry, but that opinion isn't allowed. The liberal media has assured us that the only people to blame in this situation are Trump supporting conservatives. Everybody else is as innocent as lambs, and blaming both side means you're a Nazi.

[Mountain Man]

That's what the neutral option was for.

Except a lot of us don't have "deeply mixed feelings on the subject". That option would only appeal to a wishy-washy libiot like you who lacks the moral certitude to condemn his own. I, for one, feel very strongly that there is plenty of blame to go around, from the governor, to the police, to individuals on both sides of the picket line who instigated violence. Or as our President wisely stated it, "We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry, and violence on many sides. On many sides."

[Sparko]

I would say that both Atifa and the muppets marching at Charlottesville are on the extremes edges of their respective sides of the political spectrum, and thus are in fact closer to each other than to either the Left, right or center, and that both should be charged with the same charges (be that domestic terrorism, or whatever)

So your poll needs an additional option of "both the protesters and counter protesters are morons who should be treated with ridicule and derision."

agree. I believe that taking down confederate statues and symbols is wrong, but I also think fighting and violence over them is equally wrong. Peaceful protests, or contacting your local government or congressman about it (either way, for or against) is the correct way to handle it.

[Sparko]

Only somebody from one side murdered anybody on this occasion... I don't see the case for equivalence in charges.

(Though of course the murder should only factor into charges for the person responsible.)

really? I suppose we can then condemn all liberals because of the Cop killings and violence done by the various liberal groups like BLM and Antifa over the last year?

The white supremacists went there looking for a fight. Yes. But so did the BLM and Antifa. They came with bottles and bats and were just as bent on starting a fight as the white supremacists were. And they got it.

Yes, individuals should be charged for their individual crimes they are responsible for, but ALL of the groups, left and right were to blame for the violence there. And the police for standing back and not doing a damn thing to prevent it when they could.

[Sparko]

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say "people on both sides were there to incite violence"? There were people there on either side with the goal of simply protesting. They shouldn't be charged with anything just because other people chose to escalate it to violence. (I've heard of cases where Christians preaching the gospel have been charged with disturbing the peace because other people didn't like the message and lashed out, so this could be a dangerous slippery slope.)

Yes there were innocent people on both sides who were there just to protest for or against the taking down of the statues. They shouldn't be lumped in with the extremists.