Robert E. Lee

[Tassman]

Washington and Jefferson came to understand that slavery was immoral and condemned it as such, and they also worked to bring the practice to an end, Washington endorsing the Fairfax resolves way back in 1774 and Jefferson signing the 1807 slave trade act. A quote from Washington "It being among my first wishes to see some plan adopted by which slavery in this country may be ended."What they didn't do was to go to war with their own country in order to maintain the owning of slaves as a right.

The difference is that Washington and Jefferson were nation builders whose view of slavery evolved, whereas Robert E Lee was a nation destroyer, a traitor to the Union and intended to retain slavery. It boggles the mind that the Trump apologists can even begin to try and justify them.

[shunyadragon]

Had the South won their war, and ceded from the North then today we would refer to it as a war of independence.

The war against the British Empire was a war of rebellion, treason and separation from the Empire. the difference is the USA won that one.

You missed the real history. The President of the Confederacy and many of the governors of the South emphatically stated that the reason for the rebellion was the preservation of the institution of slavery.

Treason remains treason when you loose regardless.

Source: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/what-this-cruel-war-was-over/396482/

A Richmond-based newspaper offered the following:

‘The people of the South,’ says a contemporary, ‘are not fighting for slavery but for independence.’ Let us look into this matter. It is an easy task, we think, to show up this new-fangled heresy — a heresy calculated to do us no good, for it cannot deceive foreign statesmen nor peoples, nor mislead any one here nor in Yankeeland. . . Our doctrine is this: WE ARE FIGHTING FOR INDEPENDENCE THAT OUR GREAT AND NECESSARY DOMESTIC INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY SHALL BE PRESERVED, and for the preservation of other institutions of which slavery is the groundwork.

© Copyright Original Source

[shunyadragon]

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Henry_Hammond#Hammond.27s_quotes_on_slavery

"I firmly believe," said Governor J. H. Hammond, "that American slavery is not only not a sin, but especially commanded by God through Moses, and approved by Christ through his apostles."

Governor J. H. Hammond once said: "I endorse without reserve the much abused sentiment of Governor McDuffie, that 'slavery is the corner-stone of our republican edifice;' while I repudiate, as ridiculously absurd, that much lauded but nowhere accredited dogma of Mr. Jefferson that 'all men are born equal.'"

© Copyright Original Source

Source: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/what-this-cruel-war-was-over/396482/

It was in South Carolina that the Civil War began, when the Confederacy fired on Fort Sumter. The state’s casus belli was neither vague nor hard to comprehend:

. . .A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that “Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free,” and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction. This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.

© Copyright Original Source

[One Bad Pig]

Thanks, Raph. Now you've got Shunya doing argument by Google.

[Cerebrum123]

Thanks, Raph. Now you've got Shunya doing argument by Google.

I'd say his arguments are more consistent with him using Boggle.

[Mountain Man]

The difference is that Washington and Jefferson were nation builders...

From England's perspective, they were traitors to their king and country. From the perspective of the indigenous people, they were hostile invaders.

[Sparko]

The difference is that Washington and Jefferson were nation builders whose view of slavery evolved, whereas Robert E Lee was a nation destroyer, a traitor to the Union and intended to retain slavery. It boggles the mind that the Trump apologists can even begin to try and justify them.

He only joined the confederacy after the Union went to war with Virginia. He had gotten rid of his slaves 10 years before the war started. He had changed his mind about slaves and called it a great evil. He was not fighting to retain slavery. He was fighting for his state and what he thought was the right of states to leave the union.

"I have fought against the people of the North because I believed they were seeking to wrest from the South its dearest rights. But I have never cherished toward them bitter or vindictive feelings, and have never seen the day when I did not pray for them."

After the war he stood up for the Union.

Here is a quote he gave to a woman who was angry at the North after the war: "Madam, don't bring up your sons to detest the United States government. Recollect that we form one country now. Abandon all these local animosities, and make your sons Americans"

"The duty of its citizens, then, appears to me too plain to admit of doubt. All should unite in honest efforts to obilterate the effects of the war and to restore the blessing of peace. They should remain, if possible, in the country; promote harmony and good feeling, qualify themselves to vote and elect to the State and general legislatures wise and patriotic men, who will devote their abilities to the interests of the country and the healing of all dissensions. I have invariably recommended this course since the cessation of hostilities, and have endeavoured to practise it myself."

[Sparko]

You missed the real history. The President of the Confederacy and many of the governors of the South emphatically stated that the reason for the rebellion was the preservation of the institution of slavery.

Treason remains treason when you loose regardless.

Source: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/what-this-cruel-war-was-over/396482/

A Richmond-based newspaper offered the following:

‘The people of the South,’ says a contemporary, ‘are not fighting for slavery but for independence.’ Let us look into this matter. It is an easy task, we think, to show up this new-fangled heresy — a heresy calculated to do us no good, for it cannot deceive foreign statesmen nor peoples, nor mislead any one here nor in Yankeeland. . . Our doctrine is this: WE ARE FIGHTING FOR INDEPENDENCE THAT OUR GREAT AND NECESSARY DOMESTIC INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY SHALL BE PRESERVED, and for the preservation of other institutions of which slavery is the groundwork.

© Copyright Original Source

Oh great, 150 year old fake news from an anonymous source.

Yes, slavery was one of the big issues that precipitated the Civil War, but it was not the only issue, and many people fought for the South but not for slavery.

And to Leonhard, my earlier mention of abortion comparing it to slavery is this: People could support the South (which supported slavery) and not themselves support slavery. The same that liberals can support liberalism but not support abortion, which is something that liberalism does support.

You can support your "side" without supporting everything your side stands for.

[RumTumTugger]

He only joined the confederacy after the Union went to war with Virginia. He had gotten rid of his slaves 10 years before the war started. He had changed his mind about slaves and called it a great evil. He was not fighting to retain slavery. He was fighting for his state and what he thought was the right of states to leave the union.

"I have fought against the people of the North because I believed they were seeking to wrest from the South its dearest rights. But I have never cherished toward them bitter or vindictive feelings, and have never seen the day when I did not pray for them."

After the war he stood up for the Union.

Here is a quote he gave to a woman who was angry at the North after the war: "Madam, don't bring up your sons to detest the United States government. Recollect that we form one country now. Abandon all these local animosities, and make your sons Americans"

"The duty of its citizens, then, appears to me too plain to admit of doubt. All should unite in honest efforts to obilterate the effects of the war and to restore the blessing of peace. They should remain, if possible, in the country; promote harmony and good feeling, qualify themselves to vote and elect to the State and general legislatures wise and patriotic men, who will devote their abilities to the interests of the country and the healing of all dissensions. I have invariably recommended this course since the cessation of hostilities, and have endeavoured to practise it myself."

Sparko how dare you bring out facts when those on the left want to continue to use feelings to build their false narrative.

[JimL]

I wonder if you appreciate the irony that you're denouncing the actions of Democrats?

Different times, different party. Lincoln who republicans like to hail as an icon of the republican party was assassinated by J W Booth, a confederate sympathizer who would fit right in with the republican alt right white supremacists of today.

[Psychic Missile]

He only joined the confederacy after the Union went to war with Virginia. He had gotten rid of his slaves 10 years before the war started. He had changed his mind about slaves and called it a great evil. He was not fighting to retain slavery. He was fighting for his state and what he thought was the right of states to leave the union.

"I have fought against the people of the North because I believed they were seeking to wrest from the South its dearest rights. But I have never cherished toward them bitter or vindictive feelings, and have never seen the day when I did not pray for them."

After the war he stood up for the Union.

Here is a quote he gave to a woman who was angry at the North after the war: "Madam, don't bring up your sons to detest the United States government. Recollect that we form one country now. Abandon all these local animosities, and make your sons Americans"

"The duty of its citizens, then, appears to me too plain to admit of doubt. All should unite in honest efforts to obilterate the effects of the war and to restore the blessing of peace. They should remain, if possible, in the country; promote harmony and good feeling, qualify themselves to vote and elect to the State and general legislatures wise and patriotic men, who will devote their abilities to the interests of the country and the healing of all dissensions. I have invariably recommended this course since the cessation of hostilities, and have endeavoured to practise it myself."

There's more to it.

"In this enlightened age, there are few I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country. It is useless to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things.

How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild & melting influence of Christianity, than the storms & tempests of fiery Controversy. This influence though slow, is sure. The doctrines & miracles of our Saviour have required nearly two thousand years, to Convert but a small part of the human race, & even among Christian nations, what gross errors still exist! While we see the Course of the final abolition of human Slavery is onward, & we give it the aid of our prayers & all justifiable means in our power, we must leave the progress as well as the result in his hands who sees the end; who Chooses to work by slow influences; & with whom two thousand years are but as a Single day." - Robert E. Lee

"I remained with Gen. Lee about seventeen months, when my sister Mary, a cousin of ours, and I determined to run away, which we did in the year 1859; we had already reached Westminster, in Maryland, on our way to the North, when we were apprehended and thrown into prison, and Gen. Lee notified of our arrest; we remained in prison fifteen days, when we were sent back to Arlington; we were immediately taken before Gen. Lee, who demanded the reason why we ran away; we frankly told him that we considered ourselves free; he then told us he would teach us a lesson we never would forget; he then ordered us to the barn, where in his presence, we were tied firmly to posts by a Mr. Gwin, our overseer, who was ordered by Gen. Lee to strip us to the waist and give us fifty lashes each, excepting my sister, who received but twenty; we were accordingly stripped to the skin by the overseer, who, however, had sufficient humanity to decline whipping us; accordingly Dick Williams, a county constable was called in, who gave us the number ofl ashes ordered; Gen. Lee, in the meantime, stood by, and frequently enjoined Williams to "lay it on well," an injunction which he did not fail to heed; not satisfied with simply lacerating our naked flesh, Gen. Lee then ordered the overseer to thoroughly wash our backs with brine, which was done." - Wesley Norris, slave of Robert E. Lee

[JimL]

He only joined the confederacy after the Union went to war with Virginia. He had gotten rid of his slaves 10 years before the war started. He had changed his mind about slaves and called it a great evil. He was not fighting to retain slavery. He was fighting for his state and what he thought was the right of states to leave the union.

"I have fought against the people of the North because I believed they were seeking to wrest from the South its dearest rights. But I have never cherished toward them bitter or vindictive feelings, and have never seen the day when I did not pray for them."

After the war he stood up for the Union.

Here is a quote he gave to a woman who was angry at the North after the war: "Madam, don't bring up your sons to detest the United States government. Recollect that we form one country now. Abandon all these local animosities, and make your sons Americans"

"The duty of its citizens, then, appears to me too plain to admit of doubt. All should unite in honest efforts to obilterate the effects of the war and to restore the blessing of peace. They should remain, if possible, in the country; promote harmony and good feeling, qualify themselves to vote and elect to the State and general legislatures wise and patriotic men, who will devote their abilities to the interests of the country and the healing of all dissensions. I have invariably recommended this course since the cessation of hostilities, and have endeavoured to practise it myself."

Oh great, he endeavored to practice what he preached after resigning from the U.S. Army and leading a rebellion that caused the deaths of 260,000 southerners and 360,000 northerners over the right of his state to maintain slavery.

[Sparko]

Oh great, he endeavored to practice what he preached after resigning from the U.S. Army and leading a rebellion that caused the deaths of 260,000 southerners and 360,000 northerners over the right of his state to maintain slavery.

Jim, nobody takes you seriously any more. All you do is post twisted and exaggerated biased nonsense. Stop being such a troll and educate yourself.

No Lee was not a saint. I never said he was. He was however an honorable soldier.


You never answered me about the liberals in California who want to secede from the Union. Will that make them traitors?

[Mountain Man]

Different times, different party.

The Democrat party that opposed the Emancipation Proclamation, that opposed reparations following the Civil War, that founded the KKK, that opposed Civil Rights legislation in the 60s, is not so far removed from the Democrat party of today that sows division and keeps minorities under its thumb through oppressive entitlement programs and generational welfare.

[JimL]

The Democrat party that opposed the Emancipation Proclamation, that opposed reparations following the Civil War, that founded the KKK, that opposed Civil Rights legislation in the 60s, is not so far removed from the Democrat party of today that sows division and keeps minorities under its thumb through oppressive entitlement programs and generational welfare.

Don't know what world you are living in MM, but its obviously not the real one.