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Robert E. Lee

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  • #61
    Talking about a different war here. I recently read Deneys Reitz autobiographical trilogy dealing with first The Anglo-Boer War (as it's known in SA, here in NZ they call it the South African War), then WW1 and then his political career leading up to WW2.

    During the Anglo-Boer war Reitz, who was the son of President of the Orange Free State and he was friends with Paul Kruger (President of the Transvaal), fought against the British. He makes this observation:
    Source: Commando: A Boer Journal of the Boer War - Deneys Reitz

    Looking back, I think that war was inevitable. I have no doubt that the British Government had made up its mind to force the issue, and was the chief culprit, but the Transvaalers were also spoiling for a fight, and, from what I saw in Pretoria during the few weeks that preceded the ultimatum, I feel sure that the Boers would in any case have insisted on a rupture.
    I myself had no hatred of the British people; from my father’s side I come of Dutch and French Huguenot blood, whilst my mother (dead for many years) was a pure-bred Norwegian from the North Cape, so one race was much like another to me. Yet, as a South African, one had to fight for one’s country, and for the rest I did not concern myself overmuch with the merits or demerits of the quarrel. I looked on the prospect of war and adventure with the eyes of youth, seeing only the glamour, but knowing nothing of the horror and the misery.
    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B017WD3U4K

    © Copyright Original Source



    Like with Reitz who had no hatred for the British (and commanded the Royal Scots Fusiliers in WW1), I'm fairly sure that not everyone (and that could well include Lee) who fought for the South was fighting to keep Slavery. a significant chunk would have been fighting because "...one had to fight for one’s country..."
    Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
    1 Corinthians 16:13

    "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
    -Ben Witherington III

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      Thanks, Raph. Now you've got Shunya doing argument by Google.
      The references are valid regardless of the source. Respond to the subject and avoid attacking the messenger.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        Oh great, 150 year old fake news from an anonymous source.

        Yes, slavery was one of the big issues that precipitated the Civil War, but it was not the only issue, and many people fought for the South but not for slavery.

        And to Leonhard, my earlier mention of abortion comparing it to slavery is this: People could support the South (which supported slavery) and not themselves support slavery. The same that liberals can support liberalism but not support abortion, which is something that liberalism does support.

        You can support your "side" without supporting everything your side stands for.
        Your dodging the issue. If it were not for the slavery there would not have been War of rebellion and succession. My sources were all accurate.

        What were the other reasons, sources please.

        I can list many legitimate sources of Confederate leaders who describe the specific reason for seceding from the United States.
        Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-17-2017, 06:07 PM.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          Jim, nobody takes you seriously any more. All you do is post twisted and exaggerated biased nonsense. Stop being such a troll and educate yourself.

          No Lee was not a saint. I never said he was. He was however an honorable soldier.


          You never answered me about the liberals in California who want to secede from the Union. Will that make them traitors?
          I never answered because afaics you never asked. Anyway, yes secession is illegal and any attempt to do so would be treasonous. And btw, R.E. Lee believed it to be treasonous as well.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            Your dodging the issue. If it were not for the slavery there would not have been War of rebellion and succession. My sources were all accurate.

            What were the other reasons, sources please.

            I can list many legitimate sources of Confederate leaders who describe the specific reason for seceding from the United States.
            If slavery was the only reason for the Civil War, then the Civil War wouldn't have happened. The Republican platform called for stopping the spread of slavery in the western territories, not the abolishment of slavery in the states where it existed. I believe Abraham Lincoln explicitly said that if it meant stopping the Civil War, he was okay with slavery sticking around.

            Was slavery a really big part of the reason for the Civil War? Undoubtedly. Was it the only reason? No.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
              If slavery was the only reason for the Civil War, then the Civil War wouldn't have happened. The Republican platform called for stopping the spread of slavery in the western territories, not the abolishment of slavery in the states where it existed. I believe Abraham Lincoln explicitly said that if it meant stopping the Civil War, he was okay with slavery sticking around.

              Was slavery a really big part of the reason for the Civil War? Undoubtedly. Was it the only reason? No.
              And to that end:

              As to the policy I "seem to be pursuing" as you say, I have not meant to leave any one in doubt.

              I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views....

              Yours,
              A. Lincoln.

              Letter to Horace Greeley http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/...es/greeley.htm
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                If slavery was the only reason for the Civil War, then the Civil War wouldn't have happened. The Republican platform called for stopping the spread of slavery in the western territories, not the abolishment of slavery in the states where it existed. I believe Abraham Lincoln explicitly said that if it meant stopping the Civil War, he was okay with slavery sticking around.

                Was slavery a really big part of the reason for the Civil War? Undoubtedly. Was it the only reason? No.
                It was a very complex and in hindsight fascinating period of American history. Unfortunately, a lot of kids today are being taught that it was about nothing more than whitey fighting to keep the black man down.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  The references are valid regardless of the source. Respond to the subject and avoid attacking the messenger.
                  You wouldn't know a valid reference if it bit you. You've amply proven that over the years. You never back down, even when it's pointed out that your own sources refute you. I have better things to do.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    It was a very complex and in hindsight fascinating period of American history. Unfortunately, a lot of kids today are being taught that it was about nothing more than whitey fighting to keep the black man down.
                    That is what the leaders of the south claimed in spades. Actually keeping the dark skinned brought from Africa and their descendants to be bought and sold as property by the southern aristocracy. Unfortunately they used the rest of the people of the south as canon fodder pumped with false idealism in their war to perpetuate slavery.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      It was a very complex and in hindsight fascinating period of American history. Unfortunately, a lot of kids today are being taught that it was about nothing more than whitey fighting to keep the black man down.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Raphael View Post
                        Talking about a different war here. I recently read Deneys Reitz autobiographical trilogy dealing with first The Anglo-Boer War (as it's known in SA, here in NZ they call it the South African War), then WW1 and then his political career leading up to WW2.

                        During the Anglo-Boer war Reitz, who was the son of President of the Orange Free State and he was friends with Paul Kruger (President of the Transvaal), fought against the British. He makes this observation:
                        Source: Commando: A Boer Journal of the Boer War - Deneys Reitz

                        Looking back, I think that war was inevitable. I have no doubt that the British Government had made up its mind to force the issue, and was the chief culprit, but the Transvaalers were also spoiling for a fight, and, from what I saw in Pretoria during the few weeks that preceded the ultimatum, I feel sure that the Boers would in any case have insisted on a rupture.
                        I myself had no hatred of the British people; from my father’s side I come of Dutch and French Huguenot blood, whilst my mother (dead for many years) was a pure-bred Norwegian from the North Cape, so one race was much like another to me. Yet, as a South African, one had to fight for one’s country, and for the rest I did not concern myself overmuch with the merits or demerits of the quarrel. I looked on the prospect of war and adventure with the eyes of youth, seeing only the glamour, but knowing nothing of the horror and the misery.
                        https://www.amazon.com/dp/B017WD3U4K

                        © Copyright Original Source



                        Like with Reitz who had no hatred for the British (and commanded the Royal Scots Fusiliers in WW1), I'm fairly sure that not everyone (and that could well include Lee) who fought for the South was fighting to keep Slavery. a significant chunk would have been fighting because "...one had to fight for one’s country..."
                        When things get tough Change the subject?!?!!
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by frank n beans View Post
                          That is what the leaders of the south claimed in spades. Actually keeping the dark skinned brought from Africa and their descendants to be bought and sold as property by the southern aristocracy. Unfortunately they used the rest of the people of the south as canon fodder pumped with false idealism in their war to perpetuate slavery.
                          There was a lot more to it than that. I think you need a bigger hat, because your current one is restricting blood flow to your brain.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            When things get tough Change the subject?!?!!
                            I wasn't changing the subject Frank. I was quoting the writings of a man who was in a similar situation, in a similar time setting, just a different war. Reitz wasn't fighting against the British because he hated them or because he agreed (or disagreed) with the reasons for the war. He was fighting because one has to fight for ones country.

                            You will notice I then brought the subject back to Lee and the Confederates saying that not all Confederate soldiers would have been fighting because they desperately wanted to keep slavery, but were most likely fighting because "one has to fight for ones country".
                            Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                            1 Corinthians 16:13

                            "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
                            -Ben Witherington III

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              From England's perspective, they were traitors to their king and country. From the perspective of the indigenous people, they were hostile invaders.
                              But from the perspective of citizens of the USA, Washington and Jefferson were nation builders. OTOH Robert E Lee was a nation destroyer, a traitor to the Union and fought to retain slavery. In short, not a man to be honoured.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Raphael View Post
                                I wasn't changing the subject Frank. I was quoting the writings of a man who was in a similar situation, in a similar time setting, just a different war. Reitz wasn't fighting against the British because he hated them or because he agreed (or disagreed) with the reasons for the war. He was fighting because one has to fight for ones country.

                                You will notice I then brought the subject back to Lee and the Confederates saying that not all Confederate soldiers would have been fighting because they desperately wanted to keep slavery, but were most likely fighting because "one has to fight for ones country".
                                This is a bit over the top, 'not all Confederate soldiers would have been fighting because they desperately wanted to keep slavery.' Of course not all Confederate soldiers were fighting for this reason 'only'. Many were fighting for the their state, but this does not address the issue that is well documented. The leaders of the south (southern aristocracy) who lead the war virtually all stated their primary purpose, the states right to preserve the institution of slavery.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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