Robert E. Lee

[JimL]

1. I don't take your word on anything anyone "said" so produce a quote of Lee saying he was a traitor.

R.E. Lee said: "The Framers would never have exhausted so much labor, wisdom, and forbearance in forming the Union if it was intended to be broken up by every member of the Union at will."

2. So you are saying that if California secedes from the Union the whole state would be traitors and we should invade them and hang the leaders? Then tear down any statues or symbolism from the state?

What I'm saying, and what I made perfectly clear is that secession is illegal, contrary to the Constitution, and treasonous, and yes, the leaders of such an insurrection should be treated as such.

[Mountain Man]

What I'm saying, and what I made perfectly clear is that secession is illegal, contrary to the Constitution, and treasonous, and yes, the leaders of such an insurrection should be treated as such.

According to England at the time of the Revolutionary War, betraying king and country was an act of treason. Is it only because the Founding Fathers won and Lee lost that the former are celebrated as "nation builders" and the latter condemned as a "traitor"?

I'm just curious how you reconcile this double standard.

[rogue06]

True! So what!!

That the motives of those in rebellion do not make a difference in if they win they are nation builders and if they lose they are traitors.

[rogue06]

CP obviously doesn't reconize a racist argument/talking point when he repeats it.

JimL is incapable of recognizing just how racist it is to treat blacks as incapable of helping themselves when he blithers.

[Darth Executor]

CP obviously doesn't reconize a racist argument/talking point when he repeats it.

It's a mainstream conservative argument. So if that is racist, why should conservatives who believe it (which is most of them) not just side with nazis? Do you want that with all the guns and government positions they control? Or are you going to grow up and start arguing like an honest human being (an impossible feat for you, i suspect).

[rogue06]

R.E. Lee said: "The Framers would never have exhausted so much labor, wisdom, and forbearance in forming the Union if it was intended to be broken up by every member of the Union at will."

That's a far cry from Lee saying he called himself a traitor. In fact, it isn't even close.

[shunyadragon]

2. So you are saying that if California secedes from the Union the whole state would be traitors and we should invade them and hang the leaders? Then tear down any statues or symbolism from the state?

It depends how California would choose to secede. If they choose armed rebellion against the Union they would be traitors. If there is an agreement to secede they would not.

I consider this argument a canard and not worth any further discussion.

[rogue06]

It depends how California would choose to secede. If they choose armed rebellion against the Union they would be traitors. If there is an agreement to secede they would not.

I consider this argument a canard and not worth any further discussion.

Better tell that to JimL who considers wanting to secede to be treason.

[shunyadragon]

That's a far cry from Lee saying he called himself a traitor. In fact, it isn't even close.

Of course, it is not likely Lee would not consider himself a traitor, but nonetheless he was a traitor to the cause of preserving the Union.

After the war he appeared very apologetic, but that does not change the facts of the War of Rebellion.

[JimL]

That's a far cry from Lee saying he called himself a traitor. In fact, it isn't even close.

Those were Sparko's words, not mine. But if the shoe fits. If Lee believed it was treasonous, that secession was not an intention of the Founding Fathers, then he must have believed himself to be a traitor. Basicf logic!

[shunyadragon]

That the motives of those in rebellion do not make a difference in if they win they are nation builders and if they lose they are traitors.

I believe the motives of the rebellion are very important.

If they won they would be considered nation builders by the Southern aristocracy, but not the North nor the unfortunate slaves of the South.

Bottom line they lost the war for secession to preserve the institution of slavery, and are therefore traitors, and NOT morally grounded in their cause.

[JimL]

According to England at the time of the Revolutionary War, betraying king and country was an act of treason. Is it only because the Founding Fathers won and Lee lost that the former are celebrated as "nation builders" and the latter condemned as a "traitor"?

I'm just curious how you reconcile this double standard.

Right and wrong, thats how you reconcile. A traitor to Russia would be a hero to the U.S.

[Cow Poke]

Right and wrong, thats how you reconcile. A traitor to Russia would be a hero to the U.S.

That's just wrongheaded thinking. It depends on what his issues were. He could be a traitor to Russia AND dangerous to the US. But you're not capable of complex thought.

[shunyadragon]

Better tell that to JimL who considers wanting to secede to be treason.

I do not have to agree with JimL on this OFF TOPIC issue to agree with him on the issues of the War of Rebellion against the Union to preserve the Confederate States rights to maintain the institution of slavery. The leaders are indeed traitors, and not morally grounded in their choice of rebellion.

I believe there is a possible legal process for seceding with the Consent of Congress and the President. It is so unlikely a fairy tale and really an OFF TOPIC diversion from the real issues.

[Cow Poke]

Basicf logic!

OH, the Iron E