Thread: Prophets compared to Priests
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March 3rd 2013, 04:33 AM #76
Re: Prophets compared to Priests
How is that reconciled with Joel's declarations concerning the last days?
Does it refer to something other than the Messianic era?Joe 2:27 Then you shall know that I [am] in the midst of Israel: I [am] the LORD your God And there is no other. My people shall never be put to shame. 28 "And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions. 29 And also on [My] menservants and on [My] maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
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March 3rd 2013, 03:18 PM #77
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Male - Christian (other)Re: Prophets compared to Priests
To approach it from a Jewish perspective without getting into a strictly Christian interpretation:
While the First Temple was destroyed due to idol worship, illicit relationships and murder, our Sages attribute the destruction of the Second Temple to the baseless hatred that prevailed among the Jews. If the Jews had been united, they would have merited G‑d's protection. They would have withstood the Romans. It was the factionalism among Jews that ultimately brought about the destruction of the Second Temple. -Chabad
So a Law failing here related to Hosea is lack of love and mercy of Jews for one another:
Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
Given that many Jews apparently had baseless hatred for one another, the same may likely exist for any Messiah God sent to deliver them from Gentile bondage.
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March 3rd 2013, 11:38 PM #78
Re: Prophets compared to Priests
Last edited by footwasher; March 3rd 2013 at 11:59 PM.
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March 4th 2013, 02:03 PM #79
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Male - Christian (other)Re: Prophets compared to Priests
The Law was never done away with for Jews, however Gentiles were and are still not obligated to observe all the Law, either in Judaism or in Christianity. See Matthew 5:18-19, Acts 21:23-26. According to this teaching, when you made a vow to God to be a Jew and observe all the Laws, you couldn't just forget about it even if you became a Christian. So the treachery was not in observing ritual of the Law, but in doing so without love for God and others.
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March 5th 2013, 12:30 AM #80
Re: Prophets compared to Priests
Actually, the treachery was not trusting Him and
in doing so, not knowing about God's righteousness and so, seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
Hosea 6:6
.תֹולֹעֵמ ,םיִהֹלֱא תַעַדְו ו;חַבָז-אֹלְו ,יִּתְצַפָחדֶסֶחיִּכ For I desire mercy, and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God rather than burnt-offerings.
Psalm 32:2
.הָּיִמְר ֹוחּורְּב ןיֵאְו ;ןֹ*וָע בֹולהָוהְיבֹׁשְחַי אֹל--םָדָאיֵרְׁשַא Happy is the man unto whom the LORD counteth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
Psalm 34:9
.ֹוּב-הֶסֱחֶי ,רֶבֶּגַה יֵרְׁשַא ט ;הָוהְיבֹוט-יִּכ ,ּואְרּוּומֲעַט O consider and see that the LORD is good; happy is the man that taketh refuge in Him.
Psalm 40:9-14
9
.יָעֵמ ְךֹותְּב ,ָךְתָרֹותְו ט;יִּתְצָפָח יַהֹלֱא ָךְנֹוצְר-תֹוׂשֲעַל I delight to do Thy will, O my God; yea, Thy law is in my inmost parts.'
10
.ָּתְעָדָיהָּתַא ,הָוהְי :אָלְכֶא אֹל ,יַתָפְׂש יהֵּנִה --בָר לָהָקְּב ,קֶדֶצ יִּתְרַּׂשִּב I have preached righteousness in the great congregation, lo, I did not refrain my lips; {N} O LORD, Thou knowest.
11
.בָר לָהָקְל ,ָךְּתִמֲאַו ָךְּדְסַח יִּתְדַחִכ-אֹל ;יִּתְרָמָא ָךְתָעּוׁשְתּו ָךְתָנּומֱא יא --יִּבִל ְךֹותְּב ,יִתיִּסִכ-אֹל ָךְתָקְדִצ I have not hid Thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared Thy faithfulness and Thy salvation; {N} I have not concealed Thy mercy and Thy truth from the great congregation.
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.יִנּורְּצִידיִמָּת ,ָךְּתִמֲאַו ָךְּדְסַח ;יִּנֶּמִמ יבָךיֶמֲחַר אָלְכִת-אֹל --הָוהְי הָּתַא Thou, O LORD, wilt not withhold Thy compassions from me; {N} let Thy mercy and Thy truth continually preserve me.
13
.יִנָבָזֲעיִּבִלְו ,יִׁשאֹר תֹורֲעַּׂשִמ ּומְצָע ;תֹואְרִליִּתְלֹכָי-אֹלְו ,יַתֹנֹ*וֲע יִנּוגיִּׂשִה--רָּפְסִמ יגןיֵא-דַע ,תֹועָריַלָע-ּופְפָאיִּכ For innumerable evils have compassed me about, {N} mine iniquities have overtaken me, so that I am not able to look up; {N} they are more than the hairs of my head, and my heart hath failed me.
14
.הָׁשּוחיִתָרְזֶעְל יד,הָוהְי ;יִנֵליִּצַהְל ,הָוהְיהֵצְר Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me; O LORD, make haste to help me
Isaiah 61:1-3
1
.ַחֹוק-חַקְּפ םיִרּוסֲאַלְו ,רֹורְּד םִיּובְׁשִל אֹרְקִל ,בֵל-יֵרְּבְׁשִנְל ׁשֹבֲחַל יִנַחָלְׁש ,םיִוָנֲע רֵּׂשַבְל יִתֹא הָוהְי אח The spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to bring good tidings unto the humble; He hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the eyes to them that are bound;
2
.םיִלֵבֲא-לָּכ ,םֵחַנְל ,ּוניֵהֹלאֵל םָקָנ בםֹויְו ,הָוהיַל ןֹוצָר-תַנְׁש אֹרְקִל To proclaim the year of the LORD'S good pleasure, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3
.רֵאָּפְתִהְל הָוהְי עַּטַמ ,קֶדֶּצַהיֵליֵא םֶהָל אָרֹקְו ;הָהֵּכ ַחּור תַחַּת ,הָּלִהְת הֵטֲעַמ--לֶבֵא תַחַּתןֹוׂשָׂש ןֶמֶׁש רֶפֵא תַחַּת רֵאְּפ גםֶהָל תֵתָל ,ןֹוּיִצ יֵלֵבֲאַל םּוׂשָל To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them a garland for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the mantle of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called terebinths of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, wherein He might glory.
Having mercy is to lay down your life for your fellowman, devote your life to proclaim the goodness of God, reveal His plan to bless the world and turn people to follow Him. Those who do not keep the Covenant are those who do not gather to the Lord, in OT, by proclaiming a provision of Messiah by God, in NT by proclaiming a provision of Messiah by God!
What does trust in God do? He enables one to "know" Him. Ask the Psalmists. Ask Isaiah. Apart from revealing the correct interpretation of Law, it also energised them to bring good news to the humble, that there was a jubilee, a promised writing off of debts, that they in turn needed to spread that message. Which was bad news, foolishness, to the rich, the proud, the selfmade people, leading to the prophet being persecuted, in turn leading to their vindication, avenging, uplifting...Last edited by footwasher; March 5th 2013 at 12:43 AM.
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March 5th 2013, 11:54 AM #81
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Male - Christian (other)Re: Prophets compared to Priests
Much of that may be true, but I'm not sure how you connected treachery to Jews observing Laws and sacrifices as they vowed to do as Jews, as upheld in Matthew 5:18-19 and Acts 21:23-26 from a Christian position.
Although other treacherous acts are certainly mentioned throughout the Bible, such as the whoredom of idolatry in Jeremiah 3, specifically the mercy here is talking about loving your neighbor as yourself, thus the treachery relative to mercy is lack of it.
Hosea 6:6-9 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me. Gilead is a city of them that work iniquity, and is polluted with blood. And as troops of robbers wait for a man, so the company of priests murder in the way by consent: for they commit lewdness.
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March 5th 2013, 12:54 PM #82
Re: Prophets compared to Priests
[Johnny Poochie;3544006]Much of that may be true, but I'm not sure how you connected treachery to Jews observing Laws and sacrifices as they vowed to do as Jews, as upheld in Matthew 5:18-19 and Acts 21:23-26 from a Christian position.
Although other treacherous acts are certainly mentioned throughout the Bible, such as the whoredom of idolatry in Jeremiah 3, specifically the mercy here is talking about loving your neighbor as yourself, thus the treachery relative to mercy is lack of it.
Hosea 6:6-9 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me. Gilead is a city of them that work iniquity, and is polluted with blood. And as troops of robbers wait for a man, so[/QUOTE]
the company of priests murder in the way by consent: for they commit lewdness.
The Law can be observed in two ways: to proclaim God's mercy, or to measure the keeper's self righteousness. Knowing the promise made to Abraham, the first is the right way. This is termed as being true to the Law, showing that it was given by God to picturise His mercy in making up for the sins of men. It was being used, wrongly, instead to control the weak by those in power. Hence the rebuke from Hosea. And the murder of those who taught the correct view.
IOW, the Law was made for man, not man for the Law. It is the proclaimation of good news, a future event. When Messiah comes and saves, Law is proclaiming the good news, a fulfilled event. The loyal believer never gives up following the Law.
Question
If a Keeper of Torah is strong in the knowledge that God is merciful, is a regular applicant for that mercy, is it not un merciful on his part to hide that knowledge, both in his silence and his lack of mercy in turn to his fellow stewards of the Law? Will they not complain to the King about his unwillingness to write off the debts of those who fall into obligation to him?
Question
If a Keeper of Torah depends on his own performance by animal sacrifice to repair the effects of his past sin, will he not boast that he has saved himself by his own hands? Will men not be misled about the provision God has made to make reparation for sin and miss the opportunity to turn to Him and be counted as a follower and receive those blessings?
Question
If Israel was following Law correctly in ritual, why did Hosea teach their way was wrong? Was Israel wrong in proclaiming the true meaning of those rituals as well as not proclaiming God's mercy through their actions? If Washington's troops wore blue, would a patriot still be a patriot by acting out of character, by not telling countrymen about his requirement of blue, by wearing red?Last edited by footwasher; March 5th 2013 at 01:36 PM.
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March 5th 2013, 02:10 PM #83
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Male - Christian (other)Re: Prophets compared to Priests
Since even "love God and each other" is part of the Law, we can measure the "fruits" of observing the Law and suppose that a person is either righteous or wicked, with Christians seeing a general call to do that in Matthew 7:15-20. So the Law would seem to both proclaim God's mercy and measure the keeper's righteousness, but that leads to your next questions:
Unless you propose Universal Salvation, there is always danger of spiritual pride when we try to do the right thing, whether it is ancient Jews and sacrifices, or prayers for repentance today.
I think a huge misunderstanding exists in the phrase, "I desire mercy not sacrifice" where God may be seen to say that He didn't want sacrifices for sin since it obscures His mercy and makes atonement a self-fulfilling action.
Rather, God was not saying to abandon Laws of sacrifice. He was saying, if you don't forgive others, then no matter how many sacrifices you make, He won't forgive you. Which is echoed for Christians in Matthew 6:14-15.
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March 5th 2013, 02:40 PM #84
Re: Prophets compared to Priests
In what way is Abraham's seed a blessing to the world?
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March 5th 2013, 02:41 PM #85
Re: Prophets compared to Priests
Well it was a good thread explaining something about Judaism until footwasher came here in a flaming and rude manner.
Micah 6:6. With what shall I come before the Lord, bow before the Most High G-d? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, with yearling calves? 7. Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, with myriad streams of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? 8. He has told you, O man, what is good, and what the Lord demands of you; but to do justice, to love loving-kindness, and to walk discreetly with your G-d.
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March 5th 2013, 02:48 PM #86
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March 5th 2013, 02:49 PM #87
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March 5th 2013, 02:52 PM #88
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March 5th 2013, 03:52 PM #89
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March 5th 2013, 05:12 PM #90
Re: Prophets compared to Priests
Deuteronomy 15:17
יז**וְלָקַחְתָּ אֶת-הַמַּרְצֵעַ, וְנָתַתָּה בְאָזְנוֹ וּבַדֶּלֶת, וְהָיָה לְךָ, עֶבֶד עוֹלָם; וְאַף לַאֲמָתְךָ, תַּעֲשֶׂה-כֵּן. then thou shalt take an awl, and thrust it through his ear and into the door, and he shall be thy bondman for ever. And also unto thy bondwoman thou shalt do likewise.
God delivered Israel out of Egypt. She was content to stay with Him. She became His servant. God pierced (opened) her ears:
Psalms 40:7
ז**זֶבַח וּמִנְחָה, לֹא-חָפַצְתָּ-- ** אָזְנַיִם, כָּרִיתָ לִּי;
עוֹלָה וַחֲטָאָה, ** לֹא שָׁאָלְתָּ. 7 Sacrifice and meal-offering Thou hast no delight in; mine ears hast Thou opened; {N}
burnt-offering and sin-offering hast Thou not required.
What do servants do? They obey:
1Samuel 15:22
כב**וַיֹּאמֶר שְׁמוּאֵל, הַחֵפֶץ לַיהוָה בְּעֹלוֹת וּזְבָחִים, כִּשְׁמֹעַ, בְּקוֹל יְהוָה:* הִנֵּה שְׁמֹעַ מִזֶּבַח טוֹב, לְהַקְשִׁיב מֵחֵלֶב אֵילִים. And Samuel said: 'Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt-offerings and sacrifices, as in hearkening to the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
Too bad Israel lost the plot:
Jeremiah 7: 21-26
כא**כֹּה אָמַר יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת, אֱלֹהֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל:* עֹלוֹתֵיכֶם סְפוּ עַל-זִבְחֵיכֶם, וְאִכְלוּ בָשָׂר. 21 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Add your burnt-offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat ye flesh.
22כב**כִּי לֹא-דִבַּרְתִּי אֶת-אֲבוֹתֵיכֶם, וְלֹא צִוִּיתִים, בְּיוֹם הוציא (הוֹצִיאִי) אוֹתָם, מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרָיִם--עַל-דִּבְרֵי עוֹלָה, וָ.22 For I spoke not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt-offerings or sacrifices;
כג**כִּי אִם-אֶת-הַדָּבָר הַזֶּה צִוִּיתִי אוֹתָם לֵאמֹר, שִׁמְעוּ בְקוֹלִי--וְהָיִיתִי לָכֶם לֵאלֹהִים, וְאַתֶּם תִּהְיוּ-לִי לְעָם; וַהֲלַכְתֶּם, בְּכָל-הַדֶּרֶךְ אֲשֶׁר אֲצַוֶּה אֶתְכֶם, לְמַעַן, יִיטַב לָכֶם.
23 but this thing I commanded them, saying: 'Hearken unto My voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be My people; and walk ye in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.'
כד**וְלֹא שָׁמְעוּ, וְלֹא-הִטּוּ אֶת-אָזְנָם, וַיֵּלְכוּ בְּמֹעֵצוֹת, בִּשְׁרִרוּת לִבָּם הָרָע; וַיִּהְיוּ לְאָחוֹר, וְלֹא לְפָנִים. 24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in their own counsels, even in the stubbornness of their evil heart, and went backward and not forward,
כה**לְמִן-הַיּוֹם, אֲשֶׁר יָצְאוּ אֲבוֹתֵיכֶם מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרַיִם, עַד, הַיּוֹם הַזֶּה--וָאֶשְׁלַח אֲלֵיכֶם אֶת-כָּל-עֲבָדַי הַנְּבִיאִים, יוֹם הַשְׁכֵּם וְשָׁלֹחַ
.25 even since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day; and though I have sent unto you all My servants the prophets, sending them daily betimes and often,
כו**וְלוֹא שָׁמְעוּ אֵלַי, וְלֹא הִטּוּ אֶת-אָזְנָם; וַיַּקְשׁוּ, אֶת-עָרְפָּם--הֵרֵעוּ, מֵאֲבוֹתָם. 26 yet they hearkened not unto Me, nor inclined their ear, but made their neck stiff; they did worse than their fathers.
Adding to the confusion, the understanding of servanthood being service as priests to the nations was lost:
Isaiah 49
ו**וַיֹּאמֶר, נָקֵל מִהְיוֹתְךָ לִי עֶבֶד, לְהָקִים אֶת-שִׁבְטֵי יַעֲקֹב, ונצירי (וּנְצוּרֵי) יִשְׂרָאֵל לְהָשִׁיב; וּנְתַתִּיךָ לְאוֹר גּוֹיִם, לִהְיוֹת יְשׁוּעָתִי עַד-קְצֵה הָאָרֶץ.* {ס} 6 Yea, He saith: 'It is too light a thing that thou shouldest be My servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the offspring of Israel; I will also give thee for a light of the nations, that My salvation may be unto the end of the earth.' {S}
Interestingly, a version of Psalm 40:7 reads:
Psalms 40:6, "Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body thou hast prepared me: whole-burnt offerning and sacrifice for sin thou didst not require."
Preparing the body is hebraism for the washing of the entire body that only the high priest was required to do.The work of the priest was to reconnect , re-ligare, men with God.Last edited by footwasher; March 5th 2013 at 05:25 PM.
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