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Motivations for rebellion and secession from a nation or kingdom

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  • Motivations for rebellion and secession from a nation or kingdom

    I was kicked out of Sparks thread, therefore I started my own concerning what are the ethical and moral motives of rebellion. I will start with the declaration of secession from each of the states that seceded from the union.

    Source: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/what-this-cruel-war-was-over/396482/



    Texas:

    . . . in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states. . .

    © Copyright Original Source

    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  • #2
    Despite the rumors and false accusations the Republican Party during the Civil War period is not the same Republican Party of Today. The parties shifted party affiliations, and party loyalties over a period of time from the 1950s up to the 1970s. In the South the Republican Party shifted to more conservative positions and championed the causes of the South on issues of 'state's rights.' This time in objection to the integration, and equal rights legislation. The Democratic Party, than became the party of the North, and far West.


    Source: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/what-this-cruel-war-was-over/396482/


    Alabama:

    Upon the principles then announced by Mr. Lincoln and his leading friends, we are bound to expect his administration to be conducted. Hence it is, that in high places, among the Republi*can party, the election of Mr. Lincoln is hailed, not simply as it change of Administration, but as the inauguration of new princi*ples, and a new theory of Government, and even as the downfall of slavery. Therefore it is that the election of Mr. Lincoln cannot be regarded otherwise than a solemn declaration, on the part of a great majority of the Northern people, of hostility to the South, her property and her institutions—nothing less than an open declaration of war—for the triumph of this new theory of Government destroys the property of the South, lays waste her fields, and inaugurates all the horrors of a San Domingo servile insurrection, consigning her citizens to assassinations, and. her wives and daughters to pollution and violation, to gratify the lust of half-civilized Africans.

    © Copyright Original Source

    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #3
      The republican party didn't shift, it continued to defend everybody's civil rights once the tables turned. The democrats did a long swing from restricting the rights of blacks to restricting the rights of "racists".
      "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

      There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

      Comment


      • #4
        Who cares Frank? I've already told you the WAR wasn't about slavery. It was about the North demanding the reunification of the country, and the South telling them where to stick it. Secession was not a declaration of war.
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        - Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
          Who cares Frank? I've already told you the WAR wasn't about slavery. It was about the North demanding the reunification of the country, and the South telling them where to stick it. Secession was not a declaration of war.
          I care concerning the WHITE washing and rewriting history to suit secessionist who still represent a significant minority in Southern States. Note: The thread title: Motivations for rebellion and secession . . .

          You telling me is a meaningless assertion. Most historians and I consider the declarations of secession a declaration of war followed by the confiscation of Federal forts and armaments, and the shelling and capture of Fort Sumter. The union actions that followed were to preserve the union, and not reunification. Can you provide an example where in history where a part of country simply decided to secede and told the nation or kingdom to 'stick it,' and just walk away without consequences of war. In fact there is no precedence in history to support your assertion

          The secession was motivated by preserving the institution of slavery by the aristocracy of the South.

          The Constitution is a contract sign by all the states for commitment to the Union. There is no Constitutional provision for seceding from the United States.
          Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-18-2017, 09:06 PM.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
            Who cares Frank? I've already told you the WAR wasn't about slavery. It was about the North demanding the reunification of the country, and the South telling them where to stick it. Secession was not a declaration of war.
            Actually many historians did not consider the Civil War to begin until the Virginia Army Marched North and threatened the Capital of Washington, which resulted in the First Battle of Bull Run on July 21 of 1861. The reason for this was that Virginia and North Carolina had not officially seceded from the Union. In this scenario the South began the WAR by attempting to invade the North and attack Washington. Both Fort Sumter and the Battle of Bull Run represent aggression and declaration of war by the South very much the way the Bombing of Pearl Harbor was a declaration of war by Japan.

            The facts of history take precedence over personal assertions based on an agenda.
            Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-18-2017, 09:28 PM.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #7
              Would you slaughter all your friends and family if they didn't care enough about stopping slavery Shuny?
              "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

              There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                Would you slaughter all your friends and family if they didn't care enough about stopping slavery Shuny?
                Would you slaughter all your friends and family if they did so in the support of the institution of slavery Darth?
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  I was kicked out of Sparks thread, therefore I started my own concerning what are the ethical and moral motives of rebellion.
                  According to the following quote, the erosion of state's rights provided for by the constitution was an issue.


                  I can only say that while I have considered the preservation of the constitutional power of the General Government to be the foundation of our peace and safety at home and abroad, I yet believe that the maintenance of the rights and authority reserved to the states and to the people, not only essential to the adjustment and balance of the general system, but the safeguard to the continuance of a free government. I consider it as the chief source of stability to our political system, whereas the consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded it. I need not refer one so well acquainted as you are with American history, to the State papers of Washington and Jefferson, the representatives of the federal and democratic parties, denouncing consolidation and centralization of power, as tending to the subversion of State Governments, and to despotism.
                  https://archive.org/details/releeabiographyv012631mbp

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by arnoldo View Post
                    According to the following quote, the erosion of state's rights provided for by the constitution was an issue.
                    Possibly a minor issue related, but by the declaration of secession by all the States the 'states rights' for the preservation of slavery and the maintenance of white superiority were the main upfront issue to motivate the states to secede.

                    Source: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/what-this-cruel-war-was-over/396482/


                    Jefferson Davis:

                    You too know, that among us, white men have an equality resulting from a presence of a lower caste, which cannot exist where white men fill the position here occupied by the servile race. The mechanic who comes among us, employing the less intellectual labor of the African, takes the position which only a master-workman occupies where all the mechanics are white, and therefore it is that our mechanics hold their position of absolute equality among us.

                    Black slavery as the basis of white equality was a frequent theme for slaveholders. In his famous “Cotton Is King” speech, James Henry Hammond compared the alleged wage slavery of the North with black slavery—and white equality—in the South:

                    "The difference between us is, that our slaves are hired for life and well compensated; there is no starvation, no begging, no want of employment among our people, and not too much employment either. Yours are hired by the day, not cared for, and scantily compensated, which may be proved in the most painful manner, at any hour in any street of your large towns. Why, you meet more beggars in one day, in any single street of the city of New York, than you would meet in a lifetime in the whole South.

                    We do not think that whites should be slaves either by law or necessity. Our slaves are black, of another and inferior race. The status in which we have placed them is an elevation. They are elevated from the condition in which God first created them, by being made our slaves. None of that race on the whole face of the globe can be compared with the slaves of the South. They are happy, content, unaspiring, and utterly incapable, from intellectual weakness, ever to give us any trouble by their aspirations. Yours are white, of your own race; you are brothers of one blood. They are your equals in natural endowment of intellect, and they feel galled by their degradation."

                    © Copyright Original Source

                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      Would you slaughter all your friends and family if they did so in the support of the institution of slavery Darth?
                      If they did so what? I enjoy schooling you, but basic English is something you should have learned already.
                      "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                      There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        Possibly a minor issue related, but by the declaration of secession by all the States the 'states rights' for the preservation of slavery and the maintenance of white superiority were the main upfront issue to motivate the states to secede.

                        Source: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/what-this-cruel-war-was-over/396482/


                        Jefferson Davis:

                        You too know, that among us, white men have an equality resulting from a presence of a lower caste, which cannot exist where white men fill the position here occupied by the servile race. The mechanic who comes among us, employing the less intellectual labor of the African, takes the position which only a master-workman occupies where all the mechanics are white, and therefore it is that our mechanics hold their position of absolute equality among us.

                        Black slavery as the basis of white equality was a frequent theme for slaveholders. In his famous “Cotton Is King” speech, James Henry Hammond compared the alleged wage slavery of the North with black slavery—and white equality—in the South:

                        "The difference between us is, that our slaves are hired for life and well compensated; there is no starvation, no begging, no want of employment among our people, and not too much employment either. Yours are hired by the day, not cared for, and scantily compensated, which may be proved in the most painful manner, at any hour in any street of your large towns. Why, you meet more beggars in one day, in any single street of the city of New York, than you would meet in a lifetime in the whole South.

                        We do not think that whites should be slaves either by law or necessity. Our slaves are black, of another and inferior race. The status in which we have placed them is an elevation. They are elevated from the condition in which God first created them, by being made our slaves. None of that race on the whole face of the globe can be compared with the slaves of the South. They are happy, content, unaspiring, and utterly incapable, from intellectual weakness, ever to give us any trouble by their aspirations. Yours are white, of your own race; you are brothers of one blood. They are your equals in natural endowment of intellect, and they feel galled by their degradation."

                        © Copyright Original Source

                        Fair enough. To find the answer you are asking for in this OP ask yourself why the colonists rebelled and seceded from being part of the United Kingdom to form the United States. Was that ethical and moral to do so?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                          Who cares Frank? I've already told you the WAR wasn't about slavery. It was about the North demanding the reunification of the country, and the South telling them where to stick it. Secession was not a declaration of war.
                          Hence, the name "The War of Northern Aggression".
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            Hence, the name "The War of Northern Aggression".
                            The problem with this is it is the South that started the war at Fort Sumter and an attempt to invade the North that resulted in the First Battle of Bull Run.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              The problem with this is it is the South that started the war at Fort Sumter and an attempt to invade the North that resulted in the First Battle of Bull Run.
                              You have the sense of humor of a hub cap.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment

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