Antifa: Promoting peace... through violence!

[Rational Gaze]

Antifa seems to be an outgrowth of the old anarcho-punk scene, but not necessarily associated with that underground. Their emphasis seems much more "anti-fascist" rather than broadly anarchist.

The irony is that anarchism and leftism are mutually exclusive ideologies. You can't have centralised economic planning without an equally centralised top-down authoritarian power structure. You can either be an anarchist, in which case you can no longer be a socialist or a communist, or you can be a socialist or a communist, in which case you can no longer be an anarchist.

[Adrift]

The irony is that anarchism and leftism are mutually exclusive ideologies. You can't have centralised economic planning without an equally centralised top-down authoritarian power structure. You can either be an anarchist, in which case you can no longer be a socialist or a communist, or you can be a socialist or a communist, in which case you can no longer be an anarchist.

Most anarchists I know/knew don't consider themselves leftists, at least, not in the political sense. Anarchists do share certain similarities with lots of leftists, in that they agree on a number of social views, but they're heavily against government of all stripes, including communism/socialism. When I was in high school in the early 90s, a lot of my anarcho-punk friends would protest the KKK rallies that happened annually in Columbus, OH. I never went because, while I agreed with the sentiment, I figured all it did was draw attention to people who desired the attention. They wanted people to show up and protest against them cause it made them feel like martyrs for their beliefs and justified in their minds what they were doing.

What's weird to me is seeing this same old thing intensified and made more popular in the media. None of this is new, it's just gotten larger and completely out of control. While I have no doubt that there are plenty of old school anarcho-punk/crust punk types mixed in with the antifa crowd, from what I can tell, most of the antifa types are not punks, nor necessarily anarchists. They've taken a lot of the look of your average anarcho/crust punk, dressing in all black, wearing bandannas and combat boots, but they're largely missing the band patches and anarchist logos which are like punk prerequisites. If I had to guess, it's mostly a wide mix of left-leaning youths who hold no strict unifying political view other than "Alt-right/Nazis/KKK/Trump" are bad.

[Rational Gaze]

Most anarchists I know/knew don't consider themselves leftists, at least, not in the political sense. Anarchists do share certain similarities with lots of leftists, in that they agree on a number of social views, but they're heavily against government of all stripes, including communism/socialism. When I was in high school in the early 90s, a lot of my anarcho-punk friends would protest the KKK rallies that happened annually in Columbus, OH. I never went because, while I agreed with the sentiment, I figured all it did was draw attention to people who desired the attention. They wanted people to show up and protest against them cause it made them feel like martyrs for their beliefs and justified in their minds what they were doing.

Sounds like Antifa-Lite. Antifa are basically a bunch of NEETs* LARP*ing as the 'proletariat' 'revolting' against the 'cis-heteronormative, white supremacist, capitalist patriarchy'. They basically align themselves with communism, socialism, and often fly an-com* flags, as well as the hammer and sickle, images of Stalin, Lenin, et al. Although they're more broadly an-soc*, if I had to guess, imo, since they don't want to abolish the state, but want state socialism (vis a vis actual communism).

*NEET (Not in Education, Employment, or Training)
*LARP (Live Action Role Play)
*An-Com (Anarcho-Communist)
*An-Soc (Anarcho-Socialist)

But, either way, all forms of leftism are logically incompatible with anarchism. Since anarchism is opposition to the state, and leftism is the advocacy of state control over economics. The only logically consistent version of anarchism is anarcho-capitalism, i.e. voluntarism. Since the most extreme form of capitalism is the total absence of any state control over the economy whatsoever, and anarchism, being the most extreme form of social libertarianism in that it advocates a total absence of the state, is thus only logically consistent with maximal capitalism.

[mikewhitney]

Wikipedia doesn't mention Antifika explicitly in the United States in the October 2016 version of the web entry
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php...ldid=744593770

If the group is built on anything remotely substantial, their name merely suggests that they should be against the neo-Nazis and should not be protesting anything else. If there is any observable reason for them to assume that Trump is Fascist, that observable drive is the mass media with its propagation of lies about Trump. The mainstream media appears to be the worst influence on this country such that their propaganda is promoting violent outbreaks in America -- to the point that even when Trump denounced all hate groups, the media hated him more.

If anything resembled fascism in America, it has been the governments excessive interaction with high-financed businesses such that, for example, the FDA has promoted products of the large pharmaceutical companies but has prevented entrance of new medicines from smaller companies in cases where these new medicines have even offered cures. If Antifa actually were interested in opposing fascism, they would now be taking a break since Trump is the best president to stop the power of the government. Even more ironic, Trump has been kicking people out of government positions rather than increasing jobs.

[Darth Executor]

Antifa seems to be an outgrowth of the old anarcho-punk scene, but not necessarily associated with that underground. Their emphasis seems much more "anti-fascist" rather than broadly anarchist.

Antifa is an outgrowth of violent communist revolutionaries and their symbol style long predates the punk scene.

[Sparko]

Antifa is an outgrowth of violent communist revolutionaries and their symbol style long predates the punk scene.

Those durn Germans. First they create Nazis then they create an equally bad and violent Anti-Nazi terrorist group. Maybe people should stop looking to Germany for their political views?

[Darth Executor]

Those durn Germans. First they create Nazis then they create an equally bad and violent Anti-Nazi terrorist group. Maybe people should stop looking to Germany for their political views?

The anti-nazis were just run of the mill communists back then (and today as a matter of fact, it's not uncommon to see the sickle and hammer wherever you find antifas), and it was mostly russia supporting them. Part of why hitler got elected in the first place was fear of communists.

[Sparko]

PS the slogan in the photo "es lebe die rote einheitsfront" means Long Live the Red United Front. It shows the connection between the Antifa and the communist party.


-----
The term " united front " is considered a solution developed in 1921 and a strategy of the Communist International ( Comintern ). Unity Front refers to the co-operation of Communist Parties (CPs) with primarily socialist or social-democratic forces and other organized forces of working-class for the material interests of the working class, and especially against the large-scale entrepreneurial society and / or the influence and action of fascist groups.

The Communist International (abbreviated as Comintern or AI) has been pursuing the strategy of the united front since its III. World Congress of 1921, in order to overcome the ideological and organizational division of the workers' movement , which had existed since the 19th century, and especially since 1914/1918. The solution associated with the implementation of the unit front line was "approach the masses!"


https://translate.google.com/transla...FEinheitsfront

[Adrift]

Antifa is an outgrowth of violent communist revolutionaries and their symbol style long predates the punk scene.

I'm talking about the modern Antifa movement that's taken form today, with people dressing in black, and wearing bandannas and combat boots. As the Wikipedia article points out on the movement,

The Washington Post also made the connection between antifa, anarchists, and the later punk scene https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ifa-come-from/

As does Mother Jones, http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...ntifa-fascism/

The Atlantic, https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...t-left/534192/

And Breibart http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...owing-profile/

[Rational Gaze]

Left-wing anarchism is an oxymoron.

[Adrift]

Left-wing anarchism is an oxymoron.

Yes, so you've said (twice before). Still, most anarchists I know hold to leftist ideologies. At least, leftist social ideologies if not economic ones. Anarchists typically move within the same leftist circles as well. It's not uncommon to see anarchists and communists associate with one another in ways you won't typically see with anarchists and, say, capitalists, or monarchists. Its also not uncommon to see prominent anarchists lumped in with the left in academic works, so for instance, Jews and Leftist Politics by Jack Jacobs lumps Emma Goldman and Alexander Berkman with the likes of Marx, Trotsky, and Engels. Heck, Goldman herself talks about her early enamorment with a number of Leftist/Socialist movements that she later felt ended up betraying their causes.

Just so you know, I'm not in any way defending anarchism, I'm just pointing out those things I've heard from anarchists themselves. Lots of anarchists seem to be against private ownership, and while there may be a number of anarcho-capitalists, in my experience, they're the exception, not the rule.

[thewriteranon]

Yes, so you've said (twice before). Still, most anarchists I know hold to leftist ideologies. At least, leftist social ideologies if not economic ones. Anarchists typically move within the same leftist circles as well. It's not uncommon to see anarchists and communists associate with one another in ways you won't typically see with anarchists and, say, capitalists, or monarchists. Its also not uncommon to see prominent anarchists lumped in with the left in academic works, so for instance, Jews and Leftist Politics by Jack Jacobs lumps Emma Goldman and Alexander Berkman with the likes of Marx, Trotsky, and Engels. Heck, Goldman herself talks about her early enamorment with a number of Leftist/Socialist movements that she later felt ended up betraying their causes.

Just so you know, I'm not in any way defending anarchism, I'm just pointing out those things I've heard from anarchists themselves. Lots of anarchists seem to be against private ownership, and while there may be a number of anarcho-capitalists, in my experience, they're the exception, not the rule.

RG is an anarcho-capitalist.

[Adrift]

RG is an anarcho-capitalist.

Ah, well, like I said then, he's the exception. Just Googling it, the Daily Anarchist forum suggests that anarcho-capitalists make up a small percentage of actual anarchists (exact numbers are, of course, impossible to estimate). I know a ton of anarchists, and RG is the first one I'm personally familiar with who is anarcho-capitalist.

[thewriteranon]

Ah, well, like I said then, he's the exception. Just Googling it, the Daily Anarchist forum suggests that anarcho-capitalists make up a small percentage of actual anarchists (exact numbers are, of course, impossible to estimate). I know a ton of anarchists, and RG is the first one I'm personally familiar with who is anarcho-capitalist.

Well, so is Y'hoshua and I don't like to label myself anymore, but that's closest.

ETA: So is Dee Dee!

[KingsGambit]

I've come across plenty of an-caps in my time online. I used to be on a political discussion board years ago. There was a planned invasion by dozens of them from some other board. They were quite unpleasant, just to be honest. I remember a significant amount were Holocaust deniers too.

I was intrigued by their viewpoints on government and economics and tried to engage, but most didn't seem to want to, unfortunately.