Free will defense?

[lee_merrill]

I often hear people say that evil is in the world because God had to allow free will. "Love must be free" is another way to state this, this is the "free will defense" to the problem of evil, yet love in heaven will be free, without the possibility of sinning. God's love is free, even though he cannot sin (see Heb. 6:18).

And "We love because he first loved us" (1 John 4:19). Not because we chose to!

I believe that only believers are free (John 8:34,36), free will thus does not explain the problem of evil.

Blessings,
Lee

[tabibito]

Insofar as the problem of evil can be explained - "free will" is a good jump off point.
"Would evil be loose in the world if everyone whole-heartedly accepted Christ?" Given the scriptural declarations - the answer is seemingly "No."

[Sparko]

I often hear people say that evil is in the world because God had to allow free will. "Love must be free" is another way to state this, this is the "free will defense" to the problem of evil, yet love in heaven will be free, without the possibility of sinning. God's love is free, even though he cannot sin (see Heb. 6:18).

And "We love because he first loved us" (1 John 4:19). Not because we chose to!

I believe that only believers are free (John 8:34,36), free will thus does not explain the problem of evil.

Blessings,
Lee

I wondered the same thing, "Why can't we sin in heaven if we have free will? Sin is still possible in heaven right? After all Satan and some of the Angels sinned and rebelled in heaven."

I think:

1. That is one of the reasons we have to experience sin now, so we will see it's awful effect, so we won't want to sin in heaven. Like an alcoholic who sees how alcohol has ruined his life.
2. Perhaps we will willingly give up our free will to sin. That is part of submitting ourselves to God. We don't want to sin, do we? So we can willingly give up that ability.

[37818]

The Genesis story tells us that the knowledge of good and evil was God's (Genesis 3:22). The argument the Serpent made was, "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:5.)

God is infinite good. God made man good. But man was and is only finite good. Evil is contingent on there being [finite] good. Good does not need evil to be good. In analogy, sugar is good. Cyanide is a poison, as such is an evil. A little cyanide will render good sugar as evil poison. So the knowledge of evil in man is what renders man sinful.

Man had a free will as such before the fall. God made man good.

[lee_merrill]

"Would evil be loose in the world if everyone whole-heartedly accepted Christ?" Given the scriptural declarations - the answer is seemingly "No."

Yet "we all stumble in many ways" (James 3:2).

Perhaps we will willingly give up our free will to sin. That is part of submitting ourselves to God. We don't want to sin, do we? So we can willingly give up that ability.

Good point, and we may note that God never had that ability, yet his love for us, and within the Trinity, has always been free.

Evil is contingent on there being [finite] good. Good does not need evil to be good.

Yes, agreed.

Blessings,
Lee

[firstfloor]

I often hear people say that evil is in the world because God had to allow free will. "Love must be free" is another way to state this, this is the "free will defense" to the problem of evil, yet love in heaven will be free, without the possibility of sinning. God's love is free, even though he cannot sin (see Heb. 6:18).

And "We love because he first loved us" (1 John 4:19). Not because we chose to!

I believe that only believers are free (John 8:34,36), free will thus does not explain the problem of evil.

Blessings,
Lee

If God cannot sin, He cannot be moral. If there is no sin in heaven, the beings who live there are not us.

[Sparko]

If God cannot sin, He cannot be moral. If there is no sin in heaven, the beings who live there are not us.

That doesn't even make sense. If you can't do evil you can't be good?

[seer]

If God cannot sin, He cannot be moral. If there is no sin in heaven, the beings who live there are not us.

Did you write this before your morning bong?

[firstfloor]

That doesn't even make sense. If you can't do evil you can't be good?

Being moral implies being able to distinguish right from wrong, which means that you have to know all about ‘wrong’. Also if you are not tempted by the ‘wrong’ things you do not deserve credit for doing good. It seems that way to me at least.

[Sparko]

Being moral implies being able to distinguish right from wrong, which means that you have to know all about ‘wrong’. Also if you are not tempted by the ‘wrong’ things you do not deserve credit for doing good. It seems that way to me at least.

God knows right from wrong. Knowing that doesn't mean you have to be able to do wrong.

[firstfloor]

God knows right from wrong. Knowing that doesn't mean you have to be able to do wrong.

If a thing has agency and knows 'wrong' then it must be able to do wrong if it chose so to do. Otherwise it is an automaton.

A machine that only continually adds one and so counts successive numbers does not understand arithmetic.

[Littlejoe]

I often hear people say that evil is in the world because God had to allow free will. "Love must be free" is another way to state this, this is the "free will defense" to the problem of evil, yet love in heaven will be free, without the possibility of sinning.

Blessings,
Lee

Hi Lee!

Could you please give a scriptural reference for the bold underlined above? I mean, I see why we might think that but...is it scriptural? The demons were once angels in heaven and they sinned...

[tabibito]

Yet "we all stumble in many ways" (James 3:2).

Ah - the risks of taking a phrase out of context:

1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more severely than others.2
2 For all of us make many mistakes**. If someone does not make any mistakes** when he speaks, he is perfect* and able to control his whole body.

*[TDNT] τέλειος [complete, perfect] This adjective means “whole,” “unblemished,” “full,” “perfect,” “actualized,” “efficacious,” “mature,” “supreme,” and perhaps “dedicated.”
** πταιομεν, πταιει [TDNT] πταίω [to stumble, slip, sin]

[Sparko]

If a thing has agency and knows 'wrong' then it must be able to do wrong if it chose so to do. Otherwise it is an automaton.

A machine that only continually adds one and so counts successive numbers does not understand arithmetic.

I know what flying is but I am unable to fly. I guess I am an automation.

Besides, if sin is rebelling against God, how can God logically rebel against himself?

[firstfloor]

I know what flying is but I am unable to fly. I guess I am an automation.

Besides, if sin is rebelling against God, how can God logically rebel against himself?

Think of agency has having degrees of freedom. Your agency does not extend to the ability to fly therefore in every situation where you are presented with the ‘choice’ of fly/not fly you will not fly. In that sense you are as predictable as a clock because you lack agency with regard to flight.

Sin is not the same as rebellion. All dictators tend to punish rebellion. We have a moral duty to oppose dictatorship. It follows that rebellion against God is a moral duty.