Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Free will defense?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
    Think of agency has having degrees of freedom. Your agency does not extend to the ability to fly therefore in every situation where you are presented with the ‘choice’ of fly/not fly you will not fly. In that sense you are as predictable as a clock because you lack agency with regard to flight.

    Sin is not the same as rebellion. All dictators tend to punish rebellion. We have a moral duty to oppose dictatorship. It follows that rebellion against God is a moral duty.
    I was actually going to debate you on this until you said that last bit and showed you are just trolling again.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
      . . . It follows that rebellion against God is a moral duty.
      You really have no clue. (Jeremiah 31:31-34. Isaiah 53:6. )
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        You really have no clue. (Jeremiah 31:31-34. Isaiah 53:6. )
        You see, if all God did was sit in heaven and love everyone, there would be no issue. What makes Him a tyrant is His Law. Tyrannical religions are widespread. We oppose Islamic State because of its law.
        “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
        “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
        “not all there” - you know who you are

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          I was actually going to debate you on this until you said that last bit and showed you are just trolling again.
          “Trolling” is just opinion you don’t agree with. You brought up the subject of rebellion against God. Rebellion generally seeks to evade an oppressive power and therefore the use of that word is an admission that God’s power is oppressive.
          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
          “not all there” - you know who you are

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
            You see, if all God did was sit in heaven and love everyone, there would be no issue. What makes Him a tyrant is His Law. Tyrannical religions are widespread. We oppose Islamic State because of its law.
            firstfloor,
            You really do not get it.
            I trust you understand simple addition. 1 + 1 = 2.
            God all ready provides full forgiveness. The catch? It has to be accepted knowingly without deserving it. But it cannot be accepted if you do not really believe the offer is there. So unless you are yet a child (Mark 10:14-15) and unable to make such a decision, you need to use your free will choice and believe God did it for you (Isaiah 53:6).
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              firstfloor,
              You really do not get it.
              I trust you understand simple addition. 1 + 1 = 2.
              God all ready provides full forgiveness. The catch? It has to be accepted knowingly without deserving it. But it cannot be accepted if you do not really believe the offer is there. So unless you are yet a child (Mark 10:14-15) and unable to make such a decision, you need to use your free will choice and believe God did it for you (Isaiah 53:6).
              I see this sort of thing as induction to the cult by use of a sacred creed to elicit confession and subordination to the doctrine that ensures control and ‘purity’. It looks to me like something to be avoided, not embraced.
              “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
              “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
              “not all there” - you know who you are

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                Originally posted by lee_merrill
                ...yet love in heaven will be free, without the possibility of sinning.
                Could you please give a scriptural reference for the bold underlined above? I mean, I see why we might think that but...is it scriptural? The demons were once angels in heaven and they sinned...
                Good question! I believe our love will be like God's, for we will be like God: We know that when He appears, we will be like Him... (1 Jn 3:2). And God cannot sin (re Heb. 6:18).

                Blessings,
                Lee
                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  Good question! I believe our love will be like God's, for we will be like God: We know that when He appears, we will be like Him... (1 Jn 3:2). And God cannot sin (re Heb. 6:18).
                  Lee, I think this is a solid argument. Well argued!
                  3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures --1 Corinthians 15:3-4 (borrowed with gratitude from 37818's sig)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                    Originally posted by tabibito
                    Insofar as the problem of evil can be explained - "free will" is a good jump off point.
                    "Would evil be loose in the world if everyone whole-heartedly accepted Christ?" Given the scriptural declarations - the answer is seemingly "No."
                    Originally posted by lee_merrill
                    Yet "we all stumble in many ways" (James 3:2).
                    Ah - the risks of taking a phrase out of context:

                    1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more severely than others.2
                    2 For all of us make many mistakes**. If someone does not make any mistakes** when he speaks, he is perfect* and able to control his whole body.

                    *[TDNT] τέλειος [complete, perfect] This adjective means “whole,” “unblemished,” “full,” “perfect,” “actualized,” “efficacious,” “mature,” “supreme,” and perhaps “dedicated.”
                    ** πταιομεν, πταιει [TDNT] πταίω [to stumble, slip, sin]
                    Which I believe is an application of a general principle here, we should not all be teachers, because we all stumble in many ways. The perfect man would therefore not be sinless, but "complete", or "mature", as indeed you say.

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                      I often hear people say that evil is in the world because God had to allow free will. "Love must be free" is another way to state this, this is the "free will defense" to the problem of evil, yet love in heaven will be free, without the possibility of sinning. God's love is free, even though he cannot sin (see Heb. 6:18).

                      And "We love because he first loved us" (1 John 4:19). Not because we chose to!

                      I believe that only believers are free (John 8:34,36), free will thus does not explain the problem of evil.
                      I think part of your problem is misunderstanding what freewill means to God. God is who he is and cannot be anything other than what he is. To say that God cannot sin is the same as saying that God can not contradict his own character and nature; or to put it another way, it is impossible for God to cease being God. Furthermore, to say that God is good, or that God is love, is not to say that God measures up to some external standard of goodness or love. Rather, he is the standard of goodness and love, the embodiment, if you will, of goodness and love itself. So freewill for God simply means that he can do anything that is possible within his character and nature.

                      Now freewill as it relates to us is pretty much the same: we can do -- or at least have the potential to do -- anything that is possible within our character and nature, which includes contradicting God since we are not God. In fact, I do not think God could have created us any other way while still giving us freewill, and the entire human experience, from the cradle to the grave, is a test to see which of us will yield to God, and which of us will remain defiant to the end.

                      So what about freewill in heaven? I don't know. Obviously freewill does exist in heaven, otherwise Satan and a third of the angles could have never rebelled, so I think Sparko is on the right track, that we will still have the freewill ability to sin but no desire to simply because we will have vivid memories of what life was like on earth, and we will have no inclination whatsoever to return to that wretched, pitiful state after experiencing the infinite splendors of heaven in the presence of God himself.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                        Good question! I believe our love will be like God's, for we will be like God: We know that when He appears, we will be like Him... (1 Jn 3:2). And God cannot sin (re Heb. 6:18).
                        We will be like Christ, which is not to say that we will be equal to him. We will be like him in that we will exist in a sinless state, but we will not be equal to him since we can never be equal to God. I think we will always have the potential to contradict God but never again the desire once we get to heaven. This makes sense to me, but I suspect that someone smarter than me could make short work of my philosophy and theology.
                        Last edited by Mountain Man; 08-22-2017, 09:59 PM.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                          Which I believe is an application of a general principle here, we should not all be teachers, because we all stumble in many ways. The perfect man would therefore not be sinless, but "complete", or "mature", as indeed you say.

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          The text in question doesn't address the issue of whether a "complete" or "mature" person will sin. αμαρτανω (I fail) or αμαρτια (failure) will readily equate to "sin", πταιω not so readily.
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                            “Trolling” is just opinion you don’t agree with. You brought up the subject of rebellion against God. Rebellion generally seeks to evade an oppressive power and therefore the use of that word is an admission that God’s power is oppressive.
                            an all good being is not oppressive. that's common sense.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                              I see this sort of thing as induction to the cult by use of a sacred creed to elicit confession and subordination to the doctrine that ensures control and ‘purity’. It looks to me like something to be avoided, not embraced.
                              What are you talking about? What cult? What creed? What confession? What doctrine?

                              All false cults teach one must "do" in order to obtain and keep forgiveness. Only genuine Christianity teaches this is a "done," that forgiveness is a gift which cannot be merited. God has done the work. God does the saving (John 1:13). God does the keeping (John 10:29). The wage of sin is death (Romans 6:23; Ezekiel 18:4) and the gift (Romans 6:23; Romans 5;8; Isaiah 53:6) is eternal life through Jesus the Christ (1 John 5:9-12) who died and rose from the dead (1 Corinthians 15;3-4). All one needs to do is trust (believe) God and in His Son whom He sent (John 3:16; John 5:24; John 17:3).

                              What is your difficulty?
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                What are you talking about? What cult? What creed? What confession? What doctrine?

                                All one needs to do is trust (believe) God and in His Son whom He sent
                                Maybe it is the 100 or so (a little hyperbolic, perhaps) passages that call such an assessment into question.
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by whag, 03-27-2024, 03:01 PM
                                39 responses
                                236 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post whag
                                by whag
                                 
                                Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
                                21 responses
                                132 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
                                80 responses
                                428 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
                                45 responses
                                305 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by rogue06, 12-26-2023, 11:05 AM
                                406 responses
                                2,518 views
                                2 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Working...
                                X