Originally posted by 37818
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Free will defense?
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostYou say so. You are not God. The author of Psalm 19 said so. He was not God. The author of Romans said so. He was not God.
Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostThe differences would depend on which phase of my Christian journey we were talking about, but I think the sameness is most relevant to our discussion. At all times during that journey, what I believed then was, in my present judgment, without sufficient justification, and that is how I judge what you are telling me now.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostSo you do not want to acknowledge any word from God through any man.
Originally posted by 37818 View PostSo unless God Himself speaks to you like it is reported that He did with Adam - you are not going to accept it. Right?
Originally posted by 37818 View Postl would like to start with your first professed conversion at age 12. And step through what changed as to what you believed at each stage.
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostWhat I want is irrelevant. I can't believe without a good enough reason.
What I'm not accepting is any man's claim that God has spoken to any man. Why should I?
Why should I believe that God spoke to Adam?
Why should I believe that Adam even existed?
For what purpose?
This is an apologetics forum, where Christians defend what they believe by responding to skeptics' objections.
I have stated my objection to what you believe.
I don't see how anything I used to believe, or why I believed it, is relevant to that objection.
Do you believe that there is absolute truth? Truth is the only valid reason for faith. Valid faith has to have good reason. Good reason being based in what is really true.
Christianity BTW has more counterfeits that any other belief system.
If one does not know the genuine gospel to believe it, how can one believe what one does not know?. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostWhat would you consider a good enough reason?
Originally posted by Doug ShaverWhat I'm not accepting is any man's claim that God has spoken to any man. Why should I?
Originally posted by 37818 View PostOnly if it is true.
Originally posted by 37818 View PostWhat do you consider is a good enough reason to accept any other man's report?
Originally posted by 37818 View PostDo you believe that there is absolute truth?
Originally posted by 37818 View PostChristianity BTW has more counterfeits that any other belief system.
Originally posted by 37818 View Posthow can one believe what one does not know?
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Originally posted by 37818Do you believe that there is absolute truth?
The only evidence that we have from the scientific perspective is that the consistency and predictability Methodological Naturalism concerning the nature of our physical existence that indirectly indicates that an absolute truth underlies our physical existence.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThat doesn't even make sense. If you can't do evil you can't be good?
So that raises the question, is god capable of evil? If the answer is "yes," can he be claimed to be "all good?" If the answer is "no," then does he possess the freedom of will necessary to be described as a "moral being?"
I would be curious to know how this would be responded to.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI find this response interesting. The key word is "can't." Many have told me that humanity has to be capable of evil, because if we could only choose good, then we would not have free will and so would be "moral robots," not truly good because we lack the capacity to choose otherwise.
So that raises the question, is god capable of evil? If the answer is "yes," can he be claimed to be "all good?" If the answer is "no," then does he possess the freedom of will necessary to be described as a "moral being?"
I would be curious to know how this would be responded to.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostI would disagree with Sparko on this. I would say that of course God's moral character is immutable, He can not do evil. But that He desires creatures that freely love Him and each other. That a freely chosen love is of value to Him.
There is only one escape I can think of: that god DEFINES morality, so whatever god defines as good is therefore good - maintaining free will. Unfortunately, it seems to me that this creates the dilemma that god COULD define rape or random killing as "good" and it would be so, and we would perceive it as so.
That just makes me shudder....The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI find this response interesting. The key word is "can't." Many have told me that humanity has to be capable of evil, because if we could only choose good, then we would not have free will and so would be "moral robots," not truly good because we lack the capacity to choose otherwise.
So that raises the question, is god capable of evil? If the answer is "yes," can he be claimed to be "all good?" If the answer is "no," then does he possess the freedom of will necessary to be described as a "moral being?"
I would be curious to know how this would be responded to.Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSo how do you escape the observation that a human being lacking the capacity to do evil is a moral robot, so lacks free will? Why would a god who is incapable of evil be any less a moral robot?
There is only one escape I can think of: that god DEFINES morality, so whatever god defines as good is therefore good - maintaining free will. Unfortunately, it seems to me that this creates the dilemma that god COULD define rape or random killing as "good" and it would be so, and we would perceive it as so.
That just makes me shudder....
I think for a lot of Christians what they mean by choosing between good and evil is that we have the capability to choose to align our wills to God (the good), or to choose not to align our wills to God (evil). Sin, simply defined, is missing the mark, the mark being that which aligns with God's perfect nature.
In order to escape some sort of Euthyphro dilemma, I think most Christian thinkers don't want to say that God defines morality so much as that he is, by his very nature, the moral good. The moral good that God commands isn't something that he commands or defines arbitrarily, rather, it proceeds from who he is as the paradigm of goodness.
So, with that in mind, since there is nothing above or outside of God to which he could align his will to (there is no good devoid of God seeing as God is the good) he isn't in the situation that created beings are in as far as this form of choice is concerned. It isn't possible for him to miss any mark because to do so would be to deny his very nature, which would be logically impossible for him to do.
However, we can still say that God has free will in that he has the ability to make choices that are not determined by causal factors (which is an easy feat for God considering there is no causal factors outside of him).
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostWow, nice to see you around again carpedm!
I think for a lot of Christians what they mean by choosing between good and evil is that we have the capability to choose to align our wills to God (the good), or to choose not to align our wills to God (evil). Sin, simply defined, is missing the mark, the mark being that which aligns with God's perfect nature.
In order to escape some sort of Euthyphro dilemma, I think most Christian thinkers don't want to say that God defines morality so much as that he is, by his very nature, the moral good. The moral good that God commands isn't something that he commands or defines arbitrarily, rather, it proceeds from who he is as the paradigm of goodness.
So, with that in mind, since there is nothing above or outside of God to which he could align his will to (there is no good devoid of God seeing as God is the good) he isn't in the situation that created beings are in as far as this form of choice is concerned. It isn't possible for him to miss any mark because to do so would be to deny his very nature, which would be logically impossible for him to do.
However, we can still say that God has free will in that he has the ability to make choices that are not determined by causal factors (which is an easy feat for God considering there is no causal factors outside of him).
This is an interesting issue to me because it is one of the many internal contradictions I find in the concept of an all good, all-powerful, eternal, all knowing being. It is not clear to me how simply asserting that god "is by nature good," gets you away from a moral lack of freedom, hence a lack of morality altogether - the same assertion that is made about humanity (i.e., we must have free will and the capacity for evil to be able to choose good."). I'm sure you recognize this as the eternal "problem of evil." The concepts of all good, all powerful, all knowing, and eternal just do not mesh (from my perspective) with the presence of evil as described in the Christian worldview. My worldview has no problem with explaining the presence of both good and evil in the universe, which is one of the many reasons I prefer it. I don't find I have to twist myself into a pretzel to make it work.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNice to see you too, Adrift! Been a long time!
This is an interesting issue to me because it is one of the many internal contradictions I find in the concept of an all good, all-powerful, eternal, all knowing being. It is not clear to me how simply asserting that god "is by nature good," gets you away from a moral lack of freedom, hence a lack of morality altogether - the same assertion that is made about humanity (i.e., we must have free will and the capacity for evil to be able to choose good."). I'm sure you recognize this as the eternal "problem of evil." The concepts of all good, all powerful, all knowing, and eternal just do not mesh (from my perspective) with the presence of evil as described in the Christian worldview. My worldview has no problem with explaining the presence of both good and evil in the universe, which is one of the many reasons I prefer it. I don't find I have to twist myself into a pretzel to make it work.
I obviously have no issue at all meshing the idea of an all good, all powerful, all knowing, and eternal God with the presence of evil. I feel that Plantinga's free will defense solves it just fine. I also obviously don't find that your worldview adequately explains the presence of good and evil in the universe, because there can be no true "good" or "evil" in a universe devoid of objective moral values.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostWell God's good nature is not simply an assertion, Christian philosophers typically base it on certain ontological considerations for what makes up a greatest conceivable being. I'm not really clear on the difficulty you're having regarding God's ability to have free will, but if I'm understanding your issue at all, perhaps this link to Dr. William Lane Craig's website can help clarify a few couple things: https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writ...o-choose-evil/
I obviously have no issue at all meshing the idea of an all good, all powerful, all knowing, and eternal God with the presence of evil. I feel that Plantinga's free will defense solves it just fine. I also obviously don't find that your worldview adequately explains the presence of good and evil in the universe, because there can be no true "good" or "evil" in a universe devoid of objective moral values.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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By "true" I mean something to do with transcendence. I believe that a morality rooted in reason is rooted in shallow ground. Reasons change from society to society, from person to person, and upon personal whim. I believe that if I were an atheist, I would choose to be an utter nihilist and disregard any notion of good and evil as simply valueless concepts that originated in someone else's head that I wouldn't feel the need to accept except to prevent myself from being put into a straightjacket or jailed away.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostWell God's good nature is not simply an assertion, Christian philosophers typically base it on certain ontological considerations for what makes up a greatest conceivable being. I'm not really clear on the difficulty you're having regarding God's ability to have free will, but if I'm understanding your issue at all, perhaps this link to Dr. William Lane Craig's website can help clarify a few couple things: https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writ...o-choose-evil/
When we talk about moral principles, the inability to realize an evil choice is a serious constraint on free will, and calls into question the "morality" of the person in question. If I can only chose what is good, it does not seem to me that I can be called a "moral actor." I am merely a moral robot.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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