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Free will defense?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    Maybe it is the 100 or so (a little hyperbolic, perhaps) passages that call such an assessment into question.
    What are you talking about? There is the difference between the "do" religions of the world and the "done" by God who we only need to believe what He has done for us. There is a difference between "faith plus works" to be forgiven and keep forgiveness and "faith alone" where God alone does the saving and the does keeping.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      What are you talking about? There is the difference between the "do" religions of the world and the "done" by God who we only need to believe what He has done for us. There is a difference between "faith plus works" to be forgiven and keep forgiveness and "faith alone" where God alone does the saving and the does keeping.
      "Faith alone" is nowhere to be found in scripture. In fact it is explicitly denied, and in so many words, by James. Even "justification by faith alone" can't be supported.
      The simple fact is that repentance is a work - and no justification is granted without repentance. Nor is repentance sans "works in keeping with repentance" rather than "works of the law" considered acceptable.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        "Faith alone" is nowhere to be found in scripture. In fact it is explicitly denied, and in so many words, by James. Even "justification by faith alone" can't be supported.
        The simple fact is that repentance is a work - and no justification is granted without repentance. Nor is repentance sans "works in keeping with repentance" rather than "works of the law" considered acceptable.
        ???

        For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          ???

          For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
          Yep - I don't have an argument with what it says, just with how it's interpreted.
          Questions: What saves? How does it save? Who is saved? (and the other questions that the verse answers can be put on hold for now)
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            I often hear people say that evil is in the world because God had to allow free will. "Love must be free" is another way to state this, this is the "free will defense" to the problem of evil, yet love in heaven will be free, without the possibility of sinning. God's love is free, even though he cannot sin (see Heb. 6:18).

            And "We love because he first loved us" (1 John 4:19). Not because we chose to!

            I believe that only believers are free (John 8:34,36), free will thus does not explain the problem of evil.

            Blessings,
            Lee
            I believe this is a theological belief concerning the nature of 'free will,' and it is not in reality an effective defense of 'free will.'
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
              "Faith alone" is nowhere to be found in scripture. In fact it is explicitly denied, and in so many words, by James. Even "justification by faith alone" can't be supported.
              On the contrary there are many verses which in fact cite "faith" alone without any reference to any kind of work. Romans 1:16; John 1:12; John 3:16 to name a few.

              The simple fact is that repentance is a work - and no justification is granted without repentance.
              And repentance precedes faith. Without which one does not even come to believe. Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21.

              Nor is repentance sans "works in keeping with repentance" rather than "works of the law" considered acceptable.
              And what does tht mean?
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                Obviously freewill does exist in heaven, otherwise Satan and a third of the angles could have never rebelled...
                But notice how Paul refers to the angels that didn't rebel: I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels... (1 Ti 5:21). The elect angels! The ones chosen by God, not the ones that chose God. So this is good assurance, we will be like these angels (Luke 20:36), and thus chosen as well. Salvation is by God's choice, I believe, not (at the root) by our choice:

                To the lady chosen by God and to her children, whom I love in the truth... (2 Jn 1)

                And this is good assurance, to know that we are in heaven not because of our own will, but because of God's choice, which will never change.

                ... children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. (Jn 1:13)
                ... for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. (Ro 11:29)

                Blessings,
                Lee
                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  αμαρτανω (I fail) or αμαρτια (failure) will readily equate to "sin", πταιω not so readily.
                  Source: Expositor's Bible Commentary

                  To say that “we all stumble” is not merely to declare that everyone makes mistakes (RSV). The literal meaning of ptaiō is “to stumble,” but in both biblical and extrabiblical writings it was also used figuratively to refer to acts of sin (cf. 2:10). Thus the author declares the universality of sin, even among believers. The person who “is never at fault” in his speech (i.e. never commits sins of speech) “is a perfect man.” If anyone could be found who never sins with his tongue, he would never sin in any other way, either. Since sins of the tongue are hardest to avoid, anyone who could control his tongue would surely be able to “keep his whole body in check”—i.e., keep it from being used as an instrument of sin.

                  © Copyright Original Source


                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon
                    I believe this is a theological belief concerning the nature of 'free will,' and it is not in reality an effective defense of 'free will.'
                    I can imagine what you would think of my view of free will, then! I believe that only children of God are free, and can choose freely.

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                      I can imagine what you would think of my view of free will, then! I believe that only children of God are free, and can choose freely.

                      Blessings,
                      Lee
                      How you doing Lee, long time no see!
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                        But notice how Paul refers to the angels that didn't rebel: I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels... (1 Ti 5:21). The elect angels! The ones chosen by God, not the ones that chose God. So this is good assurance, we will be like these angels (Luke 20:36), and thus chosen as well. Salvation is by God's choice, I believe, not (at the root) by our choice:

                        To the lady chosen by God and to her children, whom I love in the truth... (2 Jn 1)

                        And this is good assurance, to know that we are in heaven not because of our own will, but because of God's choice, which will never change.

                        ... children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. (Jn 1:13)
                        ... for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. (Ro 11:29)
                        I've not studied this matter deeply, but it seems that the Bible uses the term "elect" or "chosen" to refer to anybody who is loyal to God. Ephesians 1 seems to support this:
                        "3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved."

                        So if God knew before the world was even created which of us would be saved, does that obliterate freewill? Of course not, because God is not temporal, at least not as we understand temporal, so at the instant of creation, or perhaps at the instant God had the intent to create, he saw the whole of the universe, all of space and time from beginning to end and knew which of us would repent of our own freewill and which of us would rebel, again of our own freewill, and the former he called "elect" or "chosen".

                        Going into this deeper, since God knew what would happen, he could have made changes to his creation so that, perhaps, different people would choose to repent and others would choose to rebel, but instead he looked at his creation, said, "This is what I choose to create," and that was that. So repentance is a freewill act, but it was God's choice not to alter his creation to cause a different outcome.

                        I'm mostly spitballing here, so I hope this makes sense.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          How you doing Lee, long time no see!
                          Hi Seer, it has been a while, I'm currently looking for work, and have some extra time! Hope you're doing well...

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            ... it seems that the Bible uses the term "elect" or "chosen" to refer to anybody who is loyal to God. Ephesians 1 seems to support this:
                            "3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved."
                            Though I'm missing the aspect of loyalty here?

                            [God] knew which of us would repent of our own freewill and which of us would rebel, again of our own freewill, and the former he called "elect" or "chosen".
                            John 10:25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe."

                            Implying that they had a real choice to believe, thus prevenient grace must have been present.

                            John 10:26 ... but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

                            There is a cause for the unbelief! Their nature caused it, "you are not my sheep." It is not "you are not my sheep because you do not believe," that would be foreseen faith. Instead "you do not believe because you are not my sheep," and God makes sheep, people don't make themselves sheep, thus God's choice determines who will believe, not the other way around. More thoughts on foreseen faith may be found here.

                            Blessings,
                            Lee
                            Last edited by lee_merrill; 08-23-2017, 07:22 PM.
                            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              Though I'm missing the aspect of loyalty here?


                              John 10:25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe."

                              Implying that they had a real choice to believe, thus prevenient grace must have been present.

                              John 10:26 ... but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

                              There is a cause for the unbelief! Their nature caused it, "you are not my sheep." It is not "you are not my sheep because you do not believe," that would be foreseen faith. Instead "you do not believe because you are not my sheep," and God makes sheep, people don't make themselves sheep, thus God's choice determines who will believe, not the other way around. More thoughts on foreseen faith may be found here.
                              I feel like your selective quoting has whacked out a central pillar of my argument, namely the premise that God saw the entire history of his creation in an instant, saw which of us would choose to repent, and then chose not to alter his creative act and cause other people to repent instead.

                              "...you do not believe because you are not my sheep." But they could have chosen to become his sheep by repenting, but Jesus knew they wouldn't because he, being God, already knew the entire course of universal history.
                              Last edited by Mountain Man; 08-23-2017, 07:53 PM.
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                                Hi Seer, it has been a while, I'm currently looking for work, and have some extra time! Hope you're doing well...

                                Blessings,
                                Lee
                                I hope you find work - and when you do, you still can make time for your Tweb friends!
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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