Free will defense?

[lee_merrill]

I disagree, the nature of human will is universal, whether free or not. The nature of our will is Created by God and is common to all humans.

Yes, but sinning brings the will into bondage, "the one who sins is a slave to sin", said Jesus (John 8:34).

Blessings,
Lee

[Mountain Man]

Yet the point remains, that Jesus did not say "you are not my sheep because you do not believe."

This is what I warned about earlier, about taking partial sentences, phrases, and even individual words out of context and "missing the forest because of the trees", as the saying goes. The context in this case is rather critical because Jesus goes on to say a few verses later, "If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."

It's a very bad habit to stop reading as soon as you encounter something that appears to support your view.

[lee_merrill]

Yet the point remains, that Jesus did not say "you are not my sheep because you do not believe."

This is what I warned about earlier, about taking partial sentences, phrases, and even individual words out of context and "missing the forest because of the trees", as the saying goes. The context in this case is rather critical because Jesus goes on to say a few verses later, "If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."

You have a good point here, so how do we reconcile these two verses? You can't skip over my point here, you know, and neither can I skip over your verse. I would say that Jesus' command to believe can bring about faith! He is the author of our faith (Heb. 12:2), our faith has a cause to it, because we are his sheep, we believe.

The Molinist / Arminian views put faith as the first cause in the chain of salvation, but Scripture does not support this.

Blessings,
Lee

[Mountain Man]

You have a good point here, so how do we reconcile these two verses? You can't skip over my point here, you know, and neither can I skip over your verse. I would say that Jesus' command to believe can bring about faith! He is the author of our faith (Heb. 12:2), our faith has a cause to it, because we are his sheep, we believe.

The Molinist / Arminian views put faith as the first cause in the chain of salvation, but Scripture does not support this.

I don't see a conflict that needs to be reconciled. It's not either/or, it's both. The Pharisees did not believe Jesus' words because they were not his sheep, but they could have believed based on the signs and wonders He performed. I think based on this we can conclude that there is more than one intellectual path to salvation.

And if you understand what faith is according to the Bible, it is inextricably linked to salvation, so one can not precede the other.

[37818]

I don't see a conflict that needs to be reconciled. It's not either/or, it's both. The Pharisees did not believe Jesus' words because they were not his sheep, but they could have believed based on the signs and wonders He performed. I think based on this we can conclude that there is more than one intellectual path to salvation.

And if you understand what faith is according to the Bible, it is inextricably linked to salvation, so one can not precede the other.

No. There is only one way of salvation. God's way not man's. (John 17:3; John 1:3.)

[Mountain Man]

No. There is only one way of salvation. God's way not man's. (John 17:3; John 1:3.)

I never said or implied otherwise.

[Mountain Man]

To clarify, there are multiple paths to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus. At least two are shown in the gospels: 1) Believing Jesus' testimony about himself; 2) Believing based on the works he performed. The Pharisees were invited through the latter.

[37818]

To clarify, there are multiple paths to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus. At least two are shown in the gospels: 1) Believing Jesus' testimony about himself; 2) Believing based on the works he performed. The Pharisees were invited through the latter.

Please elaborate for those two. How they both lead to the one same way.

[Mountain Man]

Please elaborate for those two. How they both lead to the one same way.

They both lead to/through Jesus.

[lee_merrill]

The Pharisees did not believe Jesus' words because they were not his sheep, but they could have believed based on the signs and wonders He performed.

Yes, so faith has a cause.

And if you understand what faith is according to the Bible, it is inextricably linked to salvation, so one can not precede the other.

Unless Scripture shows a cause of faith? Then we must take the counsel of Scripture:


"A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul." Ac 16:14.

Jesus is the Author of our faith...

Blessings,
Lee

[Mountain Man]

Jesus is the Author of our faith...

Nothing I've said has contradicted that.

[37818]

They both lead to/through Jesus.

That was not an elaboration has to how believing Jesus' works and what sayings of Jesus of Himself you meant.

[Mountain Man]

That was not an elaboration has to how believing Jesus' works and what sayings of Jesus of Himself you meant.

I'm not sure what you're asking. Jesus said to believe his testimony about himself, or believe the works he performed, two intellectual paths that lead to the same destination.

[Doug Shaver]

No. There is only one way of salvation. God's way not man's. (John 17:3; John 1:3.)

Is there any way for me to know what God's way is except for some man to tell me?

[shunyadragon]

Yes, but sinning brings the will into bondage, "the one who sins is a slave to sin", said Jesus (John 8:34).

Blessings,
Lee

. . . and all humans sin.