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A thought on sanctuary cities

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
    You're the one who called me liberal. It's kind of a strange thing to say if you think our views are actually pretty close together
    Clarification of your position is very much in order.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
      Clarification of your position is very much in order.
      It can be presumed that Spartacus, like me, and any proper Catholic are against abortion. The things Spartacus listed are very general attitudes. Agreeing with them, doens't mean that we therefore take on all the values, positions and political candidates of US Conservative Evangelicals.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
        Why is it that whenever a Christian on this forum expresses any kind of opinion differing from evangelical right wing politics, the first question we have to clarify is whether we're against abortion? Sparko asked the same question of me. Spartacus is a Catholic, why is his orthodoxy on moral questions even in question?

        I didn't ask him if he is against abortion. I know he is. I was commenting on how as Christians our views are very similar and wanting to know what differences he sees in our views because he is liberal and I am conservative. I will ask the same of you.

        Don't you think our views and stances on various issues is more similar than different? Exactly what does a liberal Christian find wrong with what a conservative Christian believes? In what way am I an embarrassment to Christianity by my conservative values?

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          Are you asking for my political values? My social values? My political values?
          Wanted to write a post highlighting this funny spelling mistake... pressed edit instead of reply... overwrote the entire post. Thankfully Sparko quoted the whole shebolah.

          Eugh... time for bed.
          Last edited by Leonhard; 08-23-2017, 03:45 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
            Are you asking for my political values? My social values? My political values? Or the moral ethics I learn from the Catholic Church? And to outlay all that and how that is similar to what you believe, and how it diverges. I wish I understood what I believe, and what you believe, well enough to do that.
            I am more interested in the values we hold as Christians.


            A very hesitant reply would be that on the moral code, and on matters of virtue, you and I agree more than we disagree. As to what sort of society best suits human happiness, and allows it to flurry more, we probably have very substantial disagreements. I'm a Social Democrat in my political outlook. I find that to be entirely consistent with the Catholic Social teachings I've gotten. For practical prudential reasons, I believe Social Welfare according to the Scandinavian Model is the best way to achieve a society of well-fed, healthy people. How and if this model can translate to the US, I can't answer you. I do believe that a society that fails to take care of its poor, by any means available to it, is morally lacking.

            As for immigration, I believe nations have the right to control their borders. I believe Trump's wall is crazy and won't work, but I don't believe border control is bad in and of itself. Denmark has tight immigration politics. I don't see why the US should be any different. However, as matters of fact I don't immigration is the cause of poverty in the US. I don't think your immigrants are mostly rapists and criminals like Trump claimed, nor even that they're significantly worse than your normal population. At least any decision on immigration in the US should not be based on those considerations.
            I don't think most immigrants are rapists or criminals. But illegal immigrants are criminals by definition, because they here illegally. They broke the law by coming into the country. But Trump never said that they all were bad. He said that many were and he means to get them out. A lot of the criminals from Mexico and South America come into the country to run drugs. Do a google search on MS13 in the USA for example.



            Typically I find a disdain for the poor, when you guys should have a disdain for the rich. Its the rich people who are morally suspect, but they're treated with a strange reverence and respect by conservative evangelicals in my opinion. I wonder if its an influence of the prosperity gospels, the seed planting and blessing stuff that's common with televangelists.
            I can't stand televangelists. I have no disdain for the poor. I help where I can. I just don't think it is right for the government to take the money I worked hard for and hand it to someone else who won't work. Jesus said to help the poor, and I don't think he meant to just let the government do it for you. As far as rich goes... I think those who work hard for their money should be able to keep it. The rich people are the ones who start businesses and hire people. Without them there would be no jobs or economy. Sure there are greedy and evil rich people out there. There are also greedy and evil poor people out there.



            To me it goes like this. We all agree that helping the poor is a good. In fact helping a poor person Christ takes as if you had helped Him in the very same situation. There are many ways of achieving this goal. One is Church Charity. Nobody can deny that donating to the Church, which then tries to take on the mission of helping poor people is a good. Its better than nothing. However when comprehensive welfare is discussed... professional help, job search consultation, educational programs, housing under proper livable conditions with proper food and shelter, medicine, etc... not even the incredibly vast Caritas organisation is capable of doing that.
            I believe in social programs too. Especially those that help people get on their feet and get education and jobs. I just know that at least here in the USA, the government is very inefficient and careless with the money they are entrusted with. Most of it gets wasted.


            If all people were Christians, and all Christians tithed properly, maybe the Church could grow to do all those things (though we'd need holy pastors who doesn't skim the money and buy themselves a bigger mansion and a new private jet).
            yup.

            But we don't live in that situation. We can however try to build a government that provides a social floor. Its the only realistic option. The other has been tried, and will only ever be a partial solution. Its never going to be good. And Churches have mixed track records in how they do these help programs they offer. They're volunteer based usually, staffed by amateurs. This isn't good when mentally ill people have to helped. And some Churches don't help people who can't work... when this is mixed with psychology denial, then suddenly severely depressed people don't get helped, etc...

            In so far as a Conservative Christian is actively working against this end - a society that helps poor people - because of ideological commitments or just bad reasons you perpetuate from your political party 'taxes are theft', 'I love Ayn Rand she changed my life', 'everyone can be become rich, if you're not rich its because you don't want to be', 'everyone can get a job', 'its better to do it yourself', 'government handouts promote laziness', 'depression isn't real, its just laziness', 'taxes are spending other peoples money' ... in so far as a Conservative Christian works against what works, I think they're failing to do what's right. Even when they just sincerely believe, as many do, that its Conservative politics that is the way, and the only way to help all... its those last 3-4% who can't work, that I never get a straight answer on.

            Soup kitchens and shelters won't cut it.

            This was long and not connected to the OP. But its the only issue I know a little of. It works in Denmark. I don't know whether what we have will work in the US. Danes have solidarity. We don't think taxes are spending other people's money, its spending our money. Together. To fix something in the society we want to fix, and provide help we all want to provide. Just in the systematized and efficient way. And danish welfare is fairly efficient. It can get more efficient, and I'm all for making some changes here and there, but its estimated that of the unemployed we have left, only around less than half of those are physically and mentally capable of a job. And a good portion of those find jobs on their own (myself included) without external help.
            So basically your answer is that we differ on social programs? OK.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
              But if you must know my stance on immigration, I believe that if we do not find a just solution, God will. Make of that whatever you want.
              There already is a just solution: send back all illegal immigrants, without exception. Ban mass migration and put severe pressure on all immigrants to assimilate without question into American culture or be sent back.

              Anything else will lead to death and destruction, like it has happened many times to every empire that was stupid enough to try your "solutions".
              "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

              There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                But if you must know my stance on immigration, I believe that if we do not find a just solution, God will. Make of that whatever you want.
                Sounds like "then the Lord rained down burning sulfur"!!!
                Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  What is your problem? I ask about your OP comments and you give me an evasive answer. In order to get clarification I ask you how our views differ and you get snarky. You were the one who originally compared liberal and conservative views regarding religion, and I know you are a liberal because we have discussed it before and you said so.

                  Grow up.
                  I am not tracking your thought process at all.

                  As far as I can tell, the only person to really grasp what I was trying to get at in the OP was OBP. My stance on immigration is immaterial.
                  Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                    Clarification of your position is very much in order.
                    For the past ~3 years, my favorite politician has been Paul Ryan. If that makes me a Leftist, I don't wanna be Right-wing.
                    Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                      not playing a defining role =/= not playing a role at all

                      These kinds of weak walkbacks don't really work around here.
                      "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                      There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                        not playing a defining role =/= not playing a role at all

                        These kinds of weak walkbacks don't really work around here.
                        quoting myself =/= walkback
                        Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          The biggest argument for limiting cooperation between police and ICE is that it compromises their ability to work with immigrant communities. ICE surely has no problem finding people to deport. When we get to the point that most illegal immigrants have been removed and we can't find the rest without police help, I'd be willing to reopen the discussion. But for now it's a bad tradeoff.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
                            Sounds like "then the Lord rained down burning sulfur"!!!
                            I don't entirely disagree.
                            Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by hedrick View Post
                              The biggest argument for limiting cooperation between police and ICE is that it compromises their ability to work with immigrant communities. ICE surely has no problem finding people to deport. When we get to the point that most illegal immigrants have been removed and we can't find the rest without police help, I'd be willing to reopen the discussion. But for now it's a bad tradeoff.
                              The faster all the invaders are removed the faster it becomes a non-issue. Bottleneck isn't ICE.
                              Last edited by Darth Executor; 08-23-2017, 06:29 PM.
                              "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                              There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                                When my home town debated and adopted a sanctuary city ordinance this past Spring, its advocates insisted that the law be thought of as affirming our town as a "welcoming city" rather than a "sanctuary city." Sanctuary, they explained, connoted a person hiding from prosecution. A sanctuary city is a place that shelters criminals, but a welcoming city is a place where people can go about their daily lives and raise their families without fear of harassment.
                                Who cares exactly how traitor progs want to spin, also make excuse for themselves?? At this rate by end of reign of Trump all sanctuary cities will be stop being traitorous so again who cares

                                Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                                As far as I can tell, the only person to really grasp what I was trying to get at in the OP was OBP. My stance on immigration is immaterial.
                                Yes, yes, you are so very very clever, kiddo!!!

                                Position of yours on immigration is not hard to tell, also uninteresting. What is interesting is when you will quit Tweb again and join other 'Twebbers so mean to meeeeee' libtards in self-deport!
                                Last edited by demi-conservative; 08-23-2017, 06:43 PM.
                                Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

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