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Debunked: Socialism has never worked

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  • Debunked: Socialism has never worked

    One of the Youtube news/commentary channels I occasionally listen to put out a good long-form piece this week explaining the different types of socialism throughout history. It covers a lot of stuff, and even I as a self-described 'socialist' learned some things from it. I think the posters in this forum who talk derisively about 'socialism' should definitely watch it: (19 min runtime)

    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

  • #2
    Is there a written version? I hate watching rambling, overly-long videos that I could read in a fraction of the time if they were in written form.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      One of the Youtube news/commentary channels I occasionally listen to put out a good long-form piece this week explaining the different types of socialism throughout history. It covers a lot of stuff, and even I as a self-described 'socialist' learned some things from it. I think the posters in this forum who talk derisively about 'socialism' should definitely watch it: (19 min runtime)
      Can you just define what you mean by socialism and which countries it worked in.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Can you just define what you mean by socialism and which countries it worked in.
        Socialism, very loosely speaking, is about power to the people and concern for others. So, loosely speaking, democracy is an example of socialism, as is "love your neighbor as yourself".

        The Scandinavian countries are a commonly used example of modern-day thriving "social democracies". If you look down a list of the top ten happiest countries in the world (Iceland, Switzerland, Finland, Netherlands, Canada, New Zealand and Australia and Sweden) it's a list of social democracies / countries that have strong social and re-distributive policies.

        Ex-PM of NZ (leader of the right-wing party):
        When Prime Minister John Key said all New Zealanders had a "socialist streak" it refered to their caring for others, he says.

        A US diplomatic cable from mid-2007 said he met with charge d'affaire Glyn Davies and told him National [his NZ political party] could not adopt conservative policies because a "socialist streak" runs through all New Zealanders.

        Other socialist phenomena include the trade union movement that was very popular in the US in the 50s-70s (and remains very strong in many of the Scandinavian countries), and the Medicare and Social Security programs.
        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • #5
          lol @ redefining socialism as "caring for others". That's some pretty absurd word twisting, even for you.
          "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

          There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

          Comment


          • #6
            Why don't we use an actually agreed upon definition?

            https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

            From the link:

            any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
            I can think of many places where that hasn't worked, and I wouldn't consider a social democracy to be a socialist government.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Dimbulb View Post
              Socialism, very loosely speaking, is about power to the people and concern for others. So, loosely speaking, democracy is an example of socialism, as is "love your neighbor as yourself".
              And "very loosely speaking", apples are oranges.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                Is there a written version? I hate watching rambling, overly-long videos that I could read in a fraction of the time if they were in written form.
                Especially because (from the bits I watched) it looks like this is basically just someone reading an essay with some pictures shown along the way. I actually really hate that kind of video, because there's no reason for it to be a video; it should just be an essay or blog post, so it can be read more quickly.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                  Especially because (from the bits I watched) it looks like this is basically just someone reading an essay with some pictures shown along the way. I actually really hate that kind of video, because there's no reason for it to be a video; it should just be an essay or blog post, so it can be read more quickly.
                  A useful trick when watching slow-paced youtube videos is to increase the speed of the by clicking on the settings cog at the bottom and setting the speed to 1.5. Youtube does a good job at speeding up the words while keeping them comprehensible.
                  "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                  "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                  "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by psstein View Post
                    any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
                    I find that in this forum there is a low-awareness of the first part of that definition among conservatives. There is a lot of "I think that communism in the USSR and Chinese was bad, therefore socialism in general is bad" kind of thinking and a lot of equating communism and socialism.

                    I can think of many places where that hasn't worked
                    Being able to think of examples where something hasn't worked doesn't prove though that it doesn't work in general. It's can be like saying "I can think of examples where police did bad things, therefore I'm against there being any police."

                    I wouldn't consider a social democracy to be a socialist government.
                    The line between social democracy and democratic socialism is pretty thin at times.
                    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                      Socialism, very loosely speaking, is about power to the people and concern for others. So, loosely speaking, democracy is an example of socialism, as is "love your neighbor as yourself".
                      Sorry Mr 'PhD', but you're not defining socialism at all, but trying to change up definitions in order to pretend that the failure of socialism actually works vs bringing destruction and piles of dead bodies in its wake.

                      The Scandinavian countries are a commonly used example of modern-day thriving "social democracies". If you look down a list of the top ten happiest countries in the world (Iceland, Switzerland, Finland, Netherlands, Canada, New Zealand and Australia and Sweden) it's a list of social democracies / countries that have strong social and re-distributive policies.
                      The countries on your list do not call themselves socialist and why does it matter how 'happy' someone claims to be? What about things like technological development, long term sustainability, economic diversication, economic growth, etc? Current happiness means very little when these things are negated.

                      Ex-PM of NZ (leader of the right-wing party):

                      A US diplomatic cable from mid-2007 said he met with charge d'affaire Glyn Davies and told him National [his NZ political party] could not adopt conservative policies because a "socialist streak" runs through all New Zealanders.[/box]
                      Other socialist phenomena include the trade union movement that was very popular in the US in the 50s-70s (and remains very strong in many of the Scandinavian countries), and the Medicare and Social Security programs.
                      Putting lipstick on a pig still gives you a pig and attempting to re-label socialism to hide its failure and piles of dead bodies isn't any better

                      [/QUOTE]
                      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        I find that in this forum there is a low-awareness of the first part of that definition among conservatives. There is a lot of "I think that communism in the USSR and Chinese was bad, therefore socialism in general is bad" kind of thinking and a lot of equating communism and socialism.
                        USSR/China called it communism but communism was a utopian fantasy. They were socialist and never made it past that stage (for obvious reasons)
                        "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                        There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                          USSR/China called it communism but communism was a utopian fantasy. They were socialist and never made it past that stage (for obvious reasons)
                          I would say they were never socialist. Socialism is about distributing power among society (be it among the workers in a business, among the wider community, or among everyone in the country) particular with regard to economic power and control over economic resources and businesses.

                          If power is concentrated into the hands of a single dictator, that's the opposite of socialism because the power isn't distributed. If you had a democratic government that owned all businesses and ran the entire economy, that would be a version of socialism because you'd have actually distributed the power among the people via the mechanism of democracy. But if you just replace the capitialistic business owner who gives orders to the workers with a national dictator who gives orders to the workers, you haven't socialized the power and empowered the workers, you've just directly substituted one form of authoritarianism for another which is what socialism opposes in the first place. The OP video describes USSR/China as "authoritarian right-wing" which I think is accurate in the sense that their authoritarian natures were what primarily characterized them - they definitely didn't distribute (socialize) economic power to the people in the way that socialism seeks to.

                          I find a very useful way to conceptualize it is to create a chart with arrows of who has power over who. If the power-chart is hierarchical (e.g. the CEO is at the top in a business, and he gives orders to the managers under them, and they give orders to the staff under them) then you've got an authoritarian business model. If the power-chart isn't hierarchical and has loops in it (e.g. if the workers at the bottom are in a trade-union and their elected union representative negotiates with the CEO as to how the company is run and so has a degree of power over him, and thus you have an arrow going from the workers at the bottom right up to the top) then you've got a socialized system. Democracy is a method of socializing power, because the elected government has power over the people, but the people have power to replace the government, so there's arrows of power going both up and down. In traditional capitalism, the power structure is purely hierarchical with the CEO giving orders on down to the minimum wage workers at the bottom having no power and just taking orders. Socialism seeks to find ways of breaking that hierarchical structure in some way and socializing the power so that all the workers have a say in how the company is run, or the wider community does - methods of doing this can include, but are not limited to: Trade unions, the employees being shareholders and thus having a vote in how the company is run, an elected worker representative on the Board, an elected community representative on the board, a democratic government or council have significant control over the company, etc. All of these break the strict hierarchy in the chart of who has power over who in the business, and mean power is being socialized to everyone.
                          Last edited by Starlight; 08-24-2017, 12:09 AM.
                          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                            Socialism, very loosely speaking, is about power to the people and concern for others. So, loosely speaking, democracy is an example of socialism, as is "love your neighbor as yourself".

                            The Scandinavian countries are a commonly used example of modern-day thriving "social democracies". If you look down a list of the top ten happiest countries in the world (Iceland, Switzerland, Finland, Netherlands, Canada, New Zealand and Australia and Sweden) it's a list of social democracies / countries that have strong social and re-distributive policies.
                            Star these are largely free market economies with extensive social welfare safety nets. Classically socialism meant that the Government controlled the means of production and distribution of goods. That does not work.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Star these are largely free market economies with extensive social welfare safety nets.
                              Yes. Having the government more involved seems to work much better than countries where the government is 'smaller' and there are less social safety nets.

                              Classically socialism meant that the Government controlled the means of production and distribution of goods.
                              Socialism has never required the government per se to control those things, merely that there was distributed control of them and they weren't solely in the hands of the captialists / a single 'owner' of the business.

                              That does not work.
                              That claim doesn't seem well-evidenced.
                              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                              Comment

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