Debunked: Socialism has never worked

[Sparko]

Tassy is not upset that there is poverty in the world...

Whilst all countries have poverty, only the USA has an obscenely rich one percent to rub their noses in it.

He is upset that not everyone is poor.

[Tassman]

43 million is less than 13%. Australia's percentage is 12.5% - nearly identical.

And the poor in our countries is way better off than in most of the world. Here is a map of world poverty by country, showing the percentage of the population living on less than $1.25 per day.

“The 2010 Human Development Report introduced an Inequality-adjusted Human Development Index (IHDI). While the simple HDI remains useful, it stated that "the IHDI is the actual level of human development (accounting for inequality)," and "the HDI can be viewed as an index of 'potential' human development (or the maximum IHDI that could be achieved if there were no inequality)." And this reveals quite a different picture”: Australia is ranked no 3, after Norway and Iceland (all with high levels of welfare support) whereas the USA is ranked no. 19.

. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y-adjusted_HDI

[shunyadragon]

“The 2010 Human Development Report introduced an Inequality-adjusted Human Development Index (IHDI). While the simple HDI remains useful, it stated that "the IHDI is the actual level of human development (accounting for inequality)," and "the HDI can be viewed as an index of 'potential' human development (or the maximum IHDI that could be achieved if there were no inequality)." And this reveals quite a different picture”: Australia is ranked no 3, after Norway and Iceland (all with high levels of welfare support) whereas the USA is ranked no. 19.

. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y-adjusted_HDI

Actually, statistics simply on the percentages of low income or poor are misleading. All countries and societies through out history have a percentage of poor or low income regardless of the degree of prosperity. As you cite the important issue is how a country society or culture deals with poverty, and the USA performance is dismal despite our prosperity relative to many other countries.

[Sparko]

[Tassman]

OTOH it's doing particularly well in the highly socialised countries that top the IHDI, the top ten being: Norway, Iceland, Australia, Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden, Ireland and Finland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y-adjusted_HDI

[Sparko]

OTOH it's doing particularly well in the highly socialised countries that top the IHDI, the top ten being: Norway, Iceland, Australia, Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden, Ireland and Finland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y-adjusted_HDI

Those are not socialist countries. They are democratic countries with social programs. Just because they have the word "social" in them doesn't make them the same thing. Socialism as a government never works. It always ends up becoming a dictatorship of some sort or just failing completely.

[seer]

OTOH it's doing particularly well in the highly socialised countries that top the IHDI, the top ten being: Norway, Iceland, Australia, Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden, Ireland and Finland.

Tass, all those countries are Capitalistic with generous social programs. Where do you think the money for those social programs comes from?

[Adrift]

Sort of on topic, I just heard that Finland is suffering through pretty bad unemployment (double our own), in part contributed to by their social programs which allow for at least two years unemployment benefits, and then unending extensions of that if the correct paperwork is done. A catch-22 was created that makes it so that part time work, or low wage work will end employment benefits, which is often more than what they would receive if they worked. So lots of people opt not to work, thus the unemployment rate. So, starting this year, Finland is experimenting with a universal basic income, where everyone will be given a base wage just for being a citizen, which they believe will fix the unemployment issue...somehow. The details don't really make sense to me, but the podcast program I was listening to (99%) pointed out that a number of tech gurus like Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk are campaigning for similar programs in the US. 99% also states that while the left loves this idea, many libertarians like it too, because it will end welfare and foodstamp benefits.

None of this makes sense to me, as it seems that if you give everyone free money, then inflation will increase, the cost of living will increase, and few people will have motivation to work, but some economists are absolutely certain that the complete opposite will happen. That people like to work, and that a universal base rate will motivate people to want to find jobs, or become more innovative. Besides Finland experimenting with this, apparently Musk is experimenting with this small scale somehow as well. Should at least be interesting to see what happens I suppose. It does seem strange to me that if Finland is the dreamland that Tassman paints it as, that they're going to such measures, but oh well.

[Sparko]

Sort of on topic, I just heard that Finland is suffering through pretty bad unemployment (double our own), in part contributed to by their social programs which allow for at least two years unemployment benefits, and then unending extensions of that if the correct paperwork is done. A catch-22 was created that makes it so that part time work, or low wage work will end employment benefits, which is often more than what they would receive if they worked. So lots of people opt not to work, thus the unemployment rate. So, starting this year, Finland is experimenting with a universal basic income, where everyone will be given a base wage just for being a citizen, which they believe will fix the unemployment issue...somehow. The details don't really make sense to me, but the podcast program I was listening to (99%) pointed out that a number of tech gurus like Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk are campaigning for similar programs in the US. 99% also states that while the left loves this idea, many libertarians like it too, because it will end welfare and foodstamp benefits.

None of this makes sense to me, as it seems that if you give everyone free money, then inflation will increase, the cost of living will increase, and few people will have motivation to work, but some economists are absolutely certain that the complete opposite will happen. That people like to work, and that a universal base rate will motivate people to want to find jobs, or become more innovative. Besides Finland experimenting with this, apparently Musk is experimenting with this small scale somehow as well. Should at least be interesting to see what happens I suppose. It does seem strange to me that if Finland is the dreamland that Tassman paints it as, that they're going to such measures, but oh well.

Do they want to make it so that working adds to the basic (You get your basic plus whatever you earn?) or if you work more than the basic, you just get what you earn and lose the basic? And how would it even work since the cost of the basic would have to be taken from taxes paid for by those who work?

[Mountain Man]

Maybe Mark Zuckerberg should start with his company. Give all of his employees a "universal basic income" regardless of whether they actually show up for work or not and see how well his business does.

[Bill the Cat]

Do they want to make it so that working adds to the basic (You get your basic plus whatever you earn?) or if you work more than the basic, you just get what you earn and lose the basic? And how would it even work since the cost of the basic would have to be taken from taxes paid for by those who work?

You big meanie! They just want to take the money you are using to buy your second pirate ship!

[Bill the Cat]

Maybe Mark Zuckerberg should start with his company. Give all of his employees a "universal basic income" regardless of whether they actually show up for work or not and see how well his business does.

Source: https://www.cnet.com/news/facebook-cafeteria-workers-vote-for-unionization/

On Friday, some 500 cafeteria workers at Facebook's headquarters in Menlo Park voted to join Unite Here Local 19 -- a California-based union representing 4,500 workers that already services other Silicon Valley companies like Intel.
It's been an ongoing trend: Food service workers in tech companies have been fighting to raise wages and bridge Silicon Valley company income inequality by joining these unions and starting campaigns like Silicon Valley Rising.
By increasing the minimum wage to $15 back in 2015, along with other added benefits, Facebook had attempted to get ahead of this problem. But even at that income level, it's hard to make ends meet for anyone living near the company's home campus in San Mateo County, with its tech-fueled cost of living at sky-high levels.
They also fall into an unfortunate middle ground -- many earning too much to qualify for state health care, but too little to afford the health insurance Facebook offers, says a Facebook-employed family who spoke to the Guardian. The family of five is currently living out of a garage in Menlo Park.

© Copyright Original Source

[Sparko]

You big meanie! They just want to take the money you are using to buy your second pirate ship!

as a pirate I just want to sit back and steal from the government.

[Adrift]

Do they want to make it so that working adds to the basic (You get your basic plus whatever you earn?) or if you work more than the basic, you just get what you earn and lose the basic? And how would it even work since the cost of the basic would have to be taken from taxes paid for by those who work?

As I understand it, EVERYONE gets money. You, me, Zuckerberg, and the homeless guy. I don't know how they figure out how much to give everyone, or if everyone will get the same amount. You won't lose it if you suddenly find yourself employed, because its money that everyone universally gets.

[Mountain Man]

Source: https://www.cnet.com/news/facebook-cafeteria-workers-vote-for-unionization/

On Friday, some 500 cafeteria workers at Facebook's headquarters in Menlo Park voted to join Unite Here Local 19 -- a California-based union representing 4,500 workers that already services other Silicon Valley companies like Intel.
It's been an ongoing trend: Food service workers in tech companies have been fighting to raise wages and bridge Silicon Valley company income inequality by joining these unions and starting campaigns like Silicon Valley Rising.
By increasing the minimum wage to $15 back in 2015, along with other added benefits, Facebook had attempted to get ahead of this problem. But even at that income level, it's hard to make ends meet for anyone living near the company's home campus in San Mateo County, with its tech-fueled cost of living at sky-high levels.
They also fall into an unfortunate middle ground -- many earning too much to qualify for state health care, but too little to afford the health insurance Facebook offers, says a Facebook-employed family who spoke to the Guardian. The family of five is currently living out of a garage in Menlo Park.

© Copyright Original Source

So he already proved that raising the minimum wage isn't a solution, so what makes him think a basic universal income will be any more successful?